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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Only God knows the answers to these questions. I think this is part of our "reward" in heaven. Humans will never find the answers to these questions. Although we all want them.

I dont believe that science opposes religion and those answers are attainable by scientists. Science not opposing religion is a BIG distinguishing point of Islam (ahmadiyyat, at least, dont know about mainstreamists) and Bahai faith, as in some instances, a scientific discovery can indicate that something is meant to be taken as a metaphor. For instance, if I told you that the 6 days in the bible were actually 6 stages or geological periods or something ...

Quote:
Part of it ... becoming rain which combined with the giant gysers flooded the entire globe.

Ok.
And, without using god or anything religion related in this explanation,
what triggered it? Was water being produced somehow under the crust, anc coincidentally the super-high-pressure point happened to be around Noah's time.

Also, how could Noah have taken a pair of every single animal from Europe, Africa, the Americas, and Oceania (and antarctica)? Also, it would take years for every animal to get onto the ark in pairs, because there are so many species around.

Quote:
Before the flood, most of the water was under teh earths surface.

Do you mean, in the mantle of the earth?

Quote:
omehow the pressure built up and the water was sent blasting into the atmosphere where it struck and broke the canopy (the firmament in Genesis) which was a protection against the harmful UV and other radiations.

So, a geyser destroyed some form of protective layer?
How?

Quote:
Still hung ... see that.

I get it now. thnx

Quote:
"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me."

You know, Krisha is said to have said a similar thing about 2700 years before Jesus did. Look here

Quote:
I swear to you I have no intention of doing hate crimes

I know you dont, youre a good person.

However, take a look at one example of what Islamophobia has caused:


Of course, having read this, i reported it to google straight away ...

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ibn_Ishaq

I'll have to find a copy sometime.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I dont believe that science opposes religion and those answers are attainable by scientists. Science not opposing religion is a BIG distinguishing point of Islam (ahmadiyyat, at least, dont know about mainstreamists) and Bahai faith, as in some instances, a scientific discovery can indicate that something is meant to be taken as a metaphor. For instance, if I told you that the 6 days in the bible were actually 6 stages or geological periods or something ...


That is a big point in Christianity as well but unlike Islam, christianity and science are still 0 to 0. Neither has won a decisive victory over the other and the battle continue to this day. Islam was defeated long ago.

Allah’s Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Gabriel has just now told me of their answers” [to the questions he had been asked]. . . . As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.” On that Abdullah bin Salam said: “I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah.”[22]

Obviously Muhammed is wrong. Every scientist on the planet would agree.

The only Books christians take to be metaphor are Daniel and revelations (although some do not). Everything else, we generally take very literally.

Quote:
Ok.
And, without using god or anything religion related in this explanation,
what triggered it?


Actually this is something Theologians still debate. Some say man caused it. Some say God did it. Some say Satan did it. God warns Noah ahead of time but it is not explained whether God himself did it or not. Maybe a guy dug too deep one day while mining. We really dont know.

Quote:
Was water being produced somehow under the crust, anc coincidentally the super-high-pressure point happened to be around Noah's time.


The water was always there from the very begining. Our current ocean water was once under the earth.

Quote:
Also, how could Noah have taken a pair of every single animal from Europe, Africa, the Americas, and Oceania (and antarctica)? Also, it would take years for every animal to get onto the ark in pairs, because there are so many species around.


You still dont get it do you? There was no americas and Afica or any other continent. There was just a big land mass with gentile fountains that burst out of the earth provinding nourishment to the plantlife. Every morning there was a think layer of dew as well that would evaporate as the sun rose higher. But no oceans and probably not any rivers either. It NEVER rained, there were no clouds or rainbows. It must have been a very terrifying thing for many people with all the water falling from the sky.

The animals were everywhere. There was no isolation of the species. Also there werent as many species as there are today. Many of todays species are versions of another animal that adapted to its specific region. Note: This is not evolution in the sense that evolutionist believe in. Noah did not get them together, God did that. And the Ark was huge.
Check this site out for more http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/compare_ships/compare_ships.htm
The ark could easily hold all these species plus room for animals for slaughtering.

Quote:
Do you mean, in the mantle of the earth?


Probably. Some kind of great subteranian chambers.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened. The rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights. Genesis 7:11-12

Quote:
So, a geyser destroyed some form of protective layer?
How?


The Geysers hit the firmament, and shattered it. The peices fell to earth, becoming water.

Quote:
You know, Krisha is said to have said a similar thing about 2700 years before Jesus did.


Many others have said it too. But saying it and being it are two very seperate things. Krishna cannnot back up his claims. Jesus can.

Yes it is sad that some (sometimes they even call themselves christians) tote this kind of hate. But one thing I do agree with him on is "GOD BLESS THE USA, ISRAEL, INDIA and all participants in the anti-islamo-fascist war of presevation." They have held the line against these sickos who follow Muhammed and may they continue to do so.
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, i'm scared. that world you described is so incredibly different to anything ive ever heard of. where in the bible are the descriptions of such a world?

however -
you have this dew, which evaprorates, and it never rains. water would evaporate into clouds, which would rain.

how did the new land masses come from?

Quote:
Krishna cannnot back up his claims. Jesus can.

I think most Hindus would take offense at that. I'll have to ask one some time though.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ok, i'm scared. that world you described is so incredibly different to anything ive ever heard of. where in the bible are the descriptions of such a world?


Remember when I said Christianity is a VERY deep religion? This is what I was refering to. I will not go too deeply into this. Being a muslim (or half muslim), you have never heard of this world. Muhammed does not talk of it. Only the highest Jewish and Christian theologians talk about this. I honestly don't think your ready to understand this. (You don't even understand regular Christian or Jewish terminology like "Son of God") But I will let you in on part of it, though I will try to be as careful as I can. Some of what I say is still being debated and researched at this very moment. I will start from the beginning.

The Garden of Eden.
It was in EVERY sense of the word, Perfect. It was made just for Adam (and later Eve). Adam was Lord of the earth and he could do things that humans today cannot do. For instance, Adam could command a tree to grow in a spot or to wither, and the earth would obey him. Jesus also demonstarted his ability to do this in Matthew 21:10-21. The animals of the garden even what we today call carnivores, did not eat meat. They also obeyed adam. There was no killing or death of any kind. This paradise is what we as humans lost when adam and eve sinned.


Something similar to this. Notice the water resovoirs beneath the earths surface, and the magenta canopy surrounding the earth.

Before the Flood
After the fall of adam and his expulsion from paradise, he was told by God that he would die. But he died in more ways than one. He died spiritually first. Effective immediatly from the moment Adam was kicked out of the Garden, Adam could no longer communicate directly with God. This must have been terrible for him. He always had that connection, but now it was gone. And he was left with a giant hole in his heart. And though he did die physically, it was not until he was 930 years old. And he had many children, not just Cain, Abel and Seth. Probably more than 50. Many theologians believe that sin is not only a spiritual thing, it is also physical as well. You see, the reason humans die at all is because of sin. Diseases and infections are all just symptoms of sin. The more man sinned the more cursed the earth became and the lower the life expectancy of man became. (Many theologians believe that the earth itself is an avatar of man. IE the world shows the literal state of man) What was once perfect has now been currupted. But even though it was currupted it still didnt resemble what we today call earth. Like I said before it was a very different ecosystem. BTW It has been proven that animals and plantlife grow faster and are more healthy under a slight magenta light. The sounds of the galaxy would hit that hydrogen canopy and it would act as a chystal (frozen hydrogen is technically a crystal) and those sound waves would make a chime every morning and every night at the same time every day. Many other things were very different and seem incredibly strange to us. But I will not go into that right now.

The Flood



Quote:
how did the new land masses come from?




Quote:
you have this dew, which evaprorates, and it never rains. water would evaporate into clouds, which would rain.

This dew is actually a constant state of humidity that condenses every night. And evaporates into humidity during the day.

Quote:
where in the bible are the descriptions of such a world?


These Theologians believe these things based on extensive research on the exact hebrew words used to describe the creation in Genesis. (Moses chose his words EXTREMELY carefully and with purpose, this is why "days" can't mean "geological periods") The hebrew words used in this part of the Bible are so old that many of them are still not fully understood. These words have double and sometimes triple meaning and Moses says that all the different meanings are intended. For instance the word "Rakheia" which we translate as firmament can mean "to pound a metal into thin sheets" Hydrogen is a metal. See here for more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen Because of its color in this state and because of its metalic qualities it fits the puzzle best with the other pieces we currently have.

There is so much more that I havent gone into. But I dont think your ready for that yet.

Quote:
I think most Hindus would take offense at that. I'll have to ask one some time though.


Krishna was not prophecied to the N'th degree for 3000 years before he showed up. Krishna did not do anything to provide a way to God. Krishna is not known the world over. Hence, he cannot backup his claim.
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Rhuan



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I think I should raise at this point, it is commonly beleived that the increase in humidity caused by the flood is what caused the extinction of dinosaurs.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I forgot that. Thank you. Although it could have been any number of other things like change in air pressure and composition, the following ice age, etc.
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyrizian, you said sometime that you don't like it when people follow religion blindly.

I don't like it when people throw common-sense and scientific evidence out the door in order to believe in religion.

You know, its weird: 85 % of the Christians I've met don't accept metaphors in the bible and torah; 100 % of the muslims i've met (admittedly, all ahmadi apart from 2) have difficulty taking most parts of the quran literally.

And fyi, that wasnt a selective attack on christianity. Its just that I dont know many jews / zoroastrians / buddhists and i havent read any hindu texts.

Oh and btw - I've been reading around, and I'd like to know your opinion on the Gnostic gospels and the Da Vinci Code. Personally, I considere it fine and legitamate, seeing as in around 300 AD, the Roman Council of Nicaea edited the bible to remove anything that would make Jesus human-like (the Gnostic gospels).
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Rhuan



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As cyrizian isn't here right now, I'll answer your questions.

Firstly, we seam to have different deffinistions of common sense...

A large quantity of the bible is most definately not meant to be metaphors, for instance, descriptions of Jesus's actions, no way could they be meant to mean anything apart from what they say, for example when it says he healed a criple, and the man was able to get up and walk, what else could it mean. Some parts of the bible do of course contain metaphors, for example, the book of revalations contains a lot of such.

The Gnostic gospels were produced by a strange corrupted "christian" sect who wearnt really christians at all, they blatently contradict all other sources, and no eye witnesses of any of the events, which they claimed to represent, were involved in the writing of them.

The Da Vinci Code was based on a book which was in turn based on a report written by a group set up by the nazis to create lies with which to discredit christianity.
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

You know, its weird: 85 % of the Christians I've met don't accept metaphors in the bible and torah


Thats because there is no reason to take it metaphorically. It all rings true as much today as it did 1000s of years ago. Mankind still falls prey to the same sins and we still have the same weaknesses. The Bible just simply isn't metaphor. The Torah is history and what that history has taught us and the rest is prophecy. Most of which has come true. These are not general prophecies mind you, they are extremely specific. Like for instance naming Cyrus by name as savior of the Jews almost 200 years before he was born. There is simply no reason to take this as metaphor.



The New Testament is the fulfillment of many of the old prophecies and again cannot be taken as metaphor. And the rest is how we should live our lives as followers of Yeshua, again not metaphor Taking it as metaphor negates its value and it deserves so much more than that.

Quote:
% of the muslims i've met (admittedly, all ahmadi apart from 2) have difficulty taking most parts of the quran literally.


Because if you followed the koran literally, you would be a terrorist.

Quote:
Oh and btw - I've been reading around, and I'd like to know your opinion on the Gnostic gospels and the Da Vinci Code. Personally, I considere it fine and legitamate, seeing as in around 300 AD, the Roman Council of Nicaea edited the bible to remove anything that would make Jesus human-like (the Gnostic gospels).


The divinci code is fiction. As are the gnostic gospels. They were written almost 300 years after Jesus' lifetime so there are not accurate depictions of Jesus. Only the earliest books were considered eligible for entry into the cannon. Those written more than 50 years after Jesus' crucifixion were disqualified. See here for more information http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/ntbook-dates.html Because Revelations was written 15 years after teh deadline there was much dispute over whether or not to include it in the canon. But after intense debate, it was included because it was written by John, the last survivng disciple of Jesus.
The council of Nicea did not edit anything out, they only edited the Bible together AKA cannonizing. There have been discoveries of gospel texts in greek that are older than the council of Nicea and they match up perfectly with the texts today (with some spelling errors). Proving that The council only put it together.
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh.

My source on the gnostic gospels and council of Nicaea comprises of 10 minutes of a short documentary I saw a while back. (Badly informed).

But, to be honest, i'd feel more safe worshipping a jesus i could empathise with (i mean, if i was christian). Apparently the gnostic jesus falls in love and laughs and does human things - i'd feel more secure with him than with god jesus who didnt do those things because we'd be able to connect better.
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really seem to misunderstand the gospels. The disciples thought he was only a man as well... at first. He ate drank laughed and cried like any other human being on earth. The disciples called him the messiah but the jews at that time thought of the messiah as a MAN that would lead them to a great military victory over their oppresssors (the romans). They only thought of him as a man but he kept talking about "his father" and all these complicated heavenly things and to be honest, his disciples just didn't get it. And they were CRUSHED when he was brutally killed by the romans. But Jesus predicted this would happen, but they didn't want to believe it. He was the Messiah and NO ONE COULD HURT THE MESSIAH!!! But they were wrong.
It was prophecied that "He would be despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. He took up our sickness and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." -Isaiah 53 (600 B.C.)
It wasn't until after He came back from the dead that the disciples started to understand. He was man AND God. My point from all of this is that although he was God, he was also a man.

Quote:
i'd feel more secure with him than with god jesus who didnt do those things because we'd be able to connect better.


Thats the reason you CAN connect. Because he made himself like you so that he could understand you better.

Quote:
i'd feel more safe worshipping a jesus i could empathise with


You should never worship a man. men are fallible and will lead you astray. Only God should be worshiped.
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You should never worship a man. men are fallible and will lead you astray. Only God should be worshiped.

Actually, i was answering from a Christian perspective (I hope).

Quote:
It was prophecied that "He would be despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Yet another similarity between Mirza Ghulam and Jesus.

Heres some info (taken from "A book of religous knowledge" by Waheed Ahmad)

Similarities with Jesus Christ

A question arises as to why the latter day reformer is called "Isa ibn Maryam" (Jesus son of mary) in the hadis of the holy prophet. the reason is great resemblance to Jesus.

1. Relationship with the law giving prophet
jesus christ did not bring laws and came around 1400 years after moses.
mirza ghulam did not bring laws and came around 1300 years after mohammad

2. reason for rejection by people
jews rejected jesus because they were waiting for Elijah himself.
muslims rejected mirza ghulam because they were waiting for jesus himself.

3. objectives
jesus's objective was to reform judaism and not to found a new faith. it is not possible to foind a new faith without giving a law. jesus did not change the mosaic law
mirza ghulam came to reform islam, and not found a new faith.

4. teachings
jesus's teachings emphasised the gentler elements of judaism: meeknesss, humility, charity, forgiveness, and repentence. he de-emphasised the harsher elements, with its restrictions and punishments.
mirza ghulam also emphasised the gentler aspects, such as patience, meekness, humility, friendship, forgiveness, charity, and prayer. he de-emphasised the harsher elements like jihad with a weapon (jihad in the sense of what im doing, posting on forums, was emphasised)
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW talk about SELECTIVE SIMILARITIES! I could find similarities between Jesus and anyone. (Thats kinda the point, Jesus wanted to be similar to us) In fact I could find more similarities between Jesus and Martin Luther King Jr. than with Mirza Ghulam. But that doesn't mean I should worship MLK.


Quote:
jesus's objective was to reform judaism and not to found a new faith. it is not possible to foind a new faith without giving a law. jesus did not change the mosaic law


That is not true. He never set out to "reform" Judaism. He came to fulfill the prophecies. He came to complete God's plan to liberate humanity from its sin.

Quote:
jesus's teachings emphasised the gentler elements of judaism: meeknesss, humility, charity, forgiveness, and repentence. he de-emphasised the harsher elements, with its restrictions and punishments.
mirza ghulam also emphasised the gentler aspects, such as patience, meekness, humility, friendship, forgiveness, charity, and prayer. he de-emphasised the harsher elements like jihad with a weapon (jihad in the sense of what im doing, posting on forums, was emphasised)


Although Judaism could be violent at times it can IN NO WAY be compared with Islam and Jihad. The objective of Judaism is to be as pure before God as possible; the objective of Islam is to dominate the world by Jihad and the sword. Vastly different Goals.
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I was talking about the Islamic Jesus "Isa" in that.

Furthermore, Mirza Ghulam came from Punjab, which is very close to Kashmir, which is where we say that Jesus is buried.

Like I said: he de-emphasised the harsher elements like jihad with a weapon (jihad in the sense of what im doing, posting on forums, was emphasised)
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Furthermore, Mirza Ghulam came from Punjab, which is very close to Kashmir, which is where we say that Jesus is buried.


Even if he was from the Kashmir, how on earth does that make him the same as Jesus? Ahmad tried to reform Islam (which Jesus would have rejected) He lead a very human and ordinary life. He fulfilled 0 prophecies. (even muslims agree with me on that) De-empahsizing violence is not the same as forgiving. He does not resemble the Biblical or historical Jesus in any way. Like I said, MLK, Saint Nicholos, Mother Taresa and many others are better matches than him. He is still a long shot from Jesus.
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