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Quotes from the Quran
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First you say that divine intervention never occurs, then you claim that it did... I won't go further atm.


Huh?
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Rhuan



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say that all mircales are merely slight tricks etc, then you claim that God did step in and bring someone back to life, from any analysis of it, the ordeal that Jesus went through would kill any human.
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didnt say bring back to life.

What I meant was that god deliberately did things like, maybe:
- removing all the nasty-ass pathogens off the nails in jesus's hands;
- having the nailers nail it in so it (accidentally) missed any major blood vessel
- making the spear miss any major blood vessels, so that only a small amount of blood came out, giving the impression that he was dead, and then allowing the romans to take him down after that day. (crucifixions could take weeks)
so that jesus would survive.
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Rhuan



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't matter if the nails go through major blood vessels or not. The fact that the person is hanging from their wrists and ankles, coupled with having been whipped in advance causes resspiratory problems, and slowly causes the body to give out, he was already dead when the spear was pushed into him.
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My god that was quick (i meant the "death" not the reply)

As you said, slowly. After a day (or probably, less than an entire day), unless he was incredibly weak, he'd be unconscious.

I did read an article in the Review of Religions journal a few months back proving he was alive ... if I find it I'll post it here.
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Rhuan



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They whipped him and tortured him in advance, remember, he was too injured to carry thecroos bar of his cross up the hill.
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aaactually, i dont remember ... so thanks for telling me.

how far in advance? if it was several hours, that would be enough time to regain energy. if it was minutes, well, chances are hed have enough energy left to carry out basic life processes such as heart beat, respiration, metabolism etc, even if he wasnt able to do more energy-demanding things such as walk up a hill with a plank of wood down his back.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the new testament written down about 100 years after Jesus?


Check this site out for more on that http://www.carm.org/evidence/gospels_written.htm

Your getting confused with the story of the quran. That was written over hundreds of years later. The new testament, was written within 70 years (most are written within 30 years) of Jesus crucifiction by people that knew him personally. They ate with him, talked with him, The book of James (Yaaqov) was written by his own brother! He grew up with him, knew all of his habits and even he believed that Jesus was GOD! Seriously I could never believe my brother was God if he said it. But Jesus' whole family believed in him.

Quote:
If you're talking about Ayshe ("little girls"), one of his wives, SHE WAS 20ISH. NOT 7.

In her own words, "The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years old)." According to Bukari, "that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death.)"

Where did you get 7 ?


Quote:
He fought the Arabs in self defense to stay alive.


Surah 8:1 "The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger"

Quote:
Quote:
How about the fact that some of his wives-to-be committed suicide rather than be with him? (thats a big hint)

You'll have to be a little more specific than that. I've never heard of such incidents

My dad told me about this one, I need to ask him about it again.

Quote:
Quote:
How about his intolerant behavior?

Once again, You'll have to be a little more specific than that. I've never heard of such incidents.

Wow this one I shouldn't even have to explain. Try this: go to any Arab country in the world and proclaim that Ahmad was the messiah.

Now about this whole Jesus couldn't have died, nonsense. The romans were the most brutal people in existence at that time. They were MASTERS of killing. They knew Jesus was a symbol and that he had to be killed so that order could be reestablished. They killed THOUSANDS of jews during this time. They knew when a man was dead. And he wasn't whipped, he was SCOURGED! You would die within a day after that but then he had to carry a huge cross all across town and then be nailed to it for 6 hours. HE WAS DEAD...end of subject. When the earthquake happened they were going to break his legs to carry him off the cross so he could die elsewhere, but they saw that he was already dead, and to make sure, they speared him. There is simply no way he could have physically survived. I really dont know how you rationalize this. You just cant...

edit: And to further iterate my point, here is a list of all Jesus' disciples and how they died.

Judas (Y'huda) Iscariot killed himself because he realized that he had sinned against love itself. And this was so tormenting to him that he hung himself to escape the pain.

1. Andrew (Andreas)..............................................................Crucified
2. Bartholomew (Bartholomaios).............................................Beaten then crucified
3. James (Ya'aqov, stepbrother of Jesus)...............................Stoned to death
4. James (Ya'aqov, son of Zebidee)........................................Beheaded
5. Judas (Y'huda, not the one who betrayed Jesus)...............Stoned to death
6. Matthew (Matit'yahu)..........................................................Speared to death
7. Peter (Shimon Kefa)...........................................................Crucified upside down
8. Philip...................................................................................Crucified
9. Simon (Shimon, the zealot).................................................Crucified
10. Thomas (Y'huda Thomas Didymus)....................................Speared to death
11. Mathias (Judas' replacement)............................................Stoned to death
12. John (Yo'anan)..................................................................Exiled for his faith; died of old age (Romans tried everything, even boiled him in oil, but he wouldn't die. This is probably because he was the only one of the disciples that had the guts to come to the crucifiction)

Now do you think that these men, all of them, were willing to go through all that for a lie? C'mon, They saw something profound in Jesus and they knew he was God and they KNEW that he died on that cross, and they KNEW that he came back to life 3 days later. Thats the only explanation there is.

Cyrizian
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your getting confused with the story of the quran. That was written over hundreds of years later.

Actually, Mohammad himself originially wrote it down on palm leaves. He was taight to write kufic in the mountain cave by Gabriel. They were compiled into a book during the time of Hazrat Umar.

Quote:
Wow this one I shouldn't even have to explain. Try this: go to any Arab country in the world and proclaim that Ahmad was the messiah.

Thats not his intolerant behaviour. Thats the Arab's behaviour.
It'd be just as bad in Iran as well, and you already know the deal in Pakistan.

Quote:

Surah 8:1 "The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger"


fun fun fun:
Quote:
They ask you concerning the spoils*. "The spoils of war are for god and the messenger. so fear god and set things right among yourselves and obey god and his messenger if you are believers

*Anfal are the spoils and gains that come as a divine gift without the muslims having laboured for them. the verse does not say anything relating to division of spoils, for that see 8:42. It relates only to the gains and spoils which fell into the hands at the battle of badr

Surahs 8 and 9 are the surahs relating to the prophesy that the muslims would recieve a victory at the battle of badr and the other early battles with the pre-islamic arabs.

I dont think Islam says anything about the disciples, apart from John, who is a prophet/saint (Ill have to check).
I'll get back to you about the jesus thing (of course, i dont expect you to believe it as that would undermine your entire faith ... just for clarification)
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, Mohammad himself originially wrote it down on palm leaves. He was taight to write kufic in the mountain cave by Gabriel. They were compiled into a book during the time of Hazrat Umar.


Read this article http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html Scholars scrutinize the Koran's origin

Excerpt: "These inscriptions differ to some degree from the version of the Koran that has been handed down through the centuries, suggesting, scholars say, that the Koran may have still been evolving in the last decade of the seventh century. Moreover, much of what we know as Islam the lives and sayings of the Prophet is based on texts from between 130 and 300 years after Muhammad's death."

Most secular scholars agree that the koran evolved for 300 years after muhammed's death before being "canonized." Whereas Most secular scholars agree that most of the new testament was written within 30 years of Jesus' crucifiction. And it hasnt changed a bit since then.

Quote:
Quote:
Wow this one I shouldn't even have to explain. Try this: go to any Arab country in the world and proclaim that Ahmad was the messiah.

Thats not his intolerant behaviour. Thats the Arab's behaviour.
It'd be just as bad in Iran as well, and you already know the deal in Pakistan.


These people are trying to BE Muhammed. Thats why they are being intolerant! But for the sake of reason lets say your right, the arabs are wrong. Then almost ALL of the followers of islam are intolerant and therefore sining against Allah!!! Either way you lose.

Quote:
fun fun fun:
Quote:
They ask you concerning the spoils*. "The spoils of war are for god and the messenger. so fear god and set things right among yourselves and obey god and his messenger if you are believers

*Anfal are the spoils and gains that come as a divine gift without the muslims having laboured for them. the verse does not say anything relating to division of spoils, for that see 8:42. It relates only to the gains and spoils which fell into the hands at the battle of badr

Surahs 8 and 9 are the surahs relating to the prophesy that the muslims would recieve a victory at the battle of badr and the other early battles with the pre-islamic arabs.



Well its too bad that muslims think that it applies to their lives NOW!

Quote:
I'll get back to you about the jesus thing (of course, i dont expect you to believe it as that would undermine your entire faith ... just for clarification)


You do realize that it undermines all of secular history as well, right?

Cyrizian
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, for example, the virgins who are supposedly awaiting good Islamic martyrs as their reward in paradise are in reality "white raisins" of crystal clarity rather than fair maidens.

I gotta admit, that makes sense

Quote:
(And many Jews appear to have welcomed the Arabs as liberators when they entered Jerusalem in 638.)

true.

Quote:
Unless one accepts the idea of the angel Gabriel

I do accept that idea. Mohammmad may well have been taught to read and write in the cave during, dreams, for example. Arabic script is very logical and easy to learn in how phonemes are attached to letters.

Quote:
For example, the famous passage about the virgins is based on the word hur, which is an adjective in the feminine plural meaning simply "white." Islamic tradition insists the term hur stands for "houri," which means virgin, but Mr. Luxenberg insists that this is a forced misreading of the text. In both ancient Aramaic and in at least one respected dictionary of early Arabic, hur means "white raisin."

That's true - virgin is a misreading. See the wikipedia on "Houri," its explained there.

Quote:
A return to the earliest Koran, Mr. Puin and others suggest, might lead to a more tolerant brand of Islam, as well as one that is more conscious of its close ties to both Judaism and Christianity.

Sounds like a good idea. Personally I think emphasising similarities between Islam and Christianity is more important than emphasising differences to destroy it.

The Ahmadiyyat has reverted Islam to an extent - however we believe that the Quran that exists nowadays is the same as it used to be - by, for instance, removing things that are definitely not from god, such as sharya (which are based on various scholars interpretations of the quran), hijab and other "islamic" clothing, honour killings etc.

Quote:
"I think the broader implications of some of the revisionist scholarship is to say that the Koran is not an authentic book, that it was fabricated 150 years later,"

Must admit, I thought like this before I began reading the article. Still think like it, but now the idea of reverting it sounds good.

Quote:
interpreting the text metaphorically rather than literally were widely practiced in mainstream Islam a thousand years ago.

Kinda like we do

Quote:
suggested Muhammad was perceived not as the founder of a new religion but as a preacher in the Old Testament tradition, hailing the coming of a Messiah.

Thats kinda true (the first bit). Islam wasn't intended as a new religion, only the completion of an old one. Like Christianity is an update of Judaism (old and new testaments), Islam was meant to upgrade that and complete it. Islam fused with Christianity in Ethiopia as they were practically identical (Ethiopian Christians rejected the son of god idea and the trinity at the time).

Quote:
Moreover, much of what we know as Islam the lives and sayings of the Prophet is based on texts from between 130 and 300 years after Muhammad's death.

Doesnt that put Bukhari's age of Ayshe up to questioning?

Quote:
Either way you lose.

I dont lose. They do.

Quote:
Well its too bad that muslims think that it applies to their lives NOW!

Yes, that is too bad. The case Rhuan posted above when a convert got attacked because of that quote he put - I mean its sad enough when critics have to revert to half sentences to try critisice Islam, but when a "Muslim" does it ... well ... Sad Sad

Quote:
You do realize that it undermines all of secular history as well, right?

Actually I dont. Please explain.
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Rhuan



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm meant to be packing to go on holiday, but I need to clarify a few things, no, that person was not attacked because of him using that quote, that was the justification they gave for attacking him, he was an egyptian, born and raised a muslim, who then doubted his faith, because he doubted the egyptian secret police took him, and tortured him until he was nearly dead, citing that part of that verse, "If they turn away, then take them and kill them where you find them" (excerpt from surah 4 verse 89.

I cannot see how anyone could look forward to white raisins, raisins are horrible.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
You do realize that it undermines all of secular history as well, right?

Actually I dont. Please explain.


Alright,

In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account:


About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had him crucified, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 63

That right there is unbiased proof (Josephus was a secular Jew) from a third party that Jesus did perform miracles died on a cross, and rose on the 3rd day.

Jesus is not some mythological figure that you can interpret any way you want. Ahmad is a fool for trying to do that. Jesus really existed and he really did these things. We have more historical and archeological evidence that Jesus existed than we do for alexander the great.

Honestly I think Islam is a junior high scool students' rip off of Judaism and christianity. Mohammed couldn't even pronounce the word "evangelion" (the first four books of the New testament) instead he called it the "injel" ROFL!
He thought the name "alexander" was al-eskandar so he called him eskandar and left off the "al" because he thought, wait for it.......alexander was a muslim! ROFL 2X!
And he even mispronounces Yeshua's greek form "Yesuh" as Isa. Its like this guy never went to school a day in his life......Oh wait... He didn't! He had someone else scribe it down because the fool couldn't READ OR WRITE!!! Jesus and all the prophets of the Bible were scholars! And this fool comes along and tries to say that hes the next level of religion and he cant even read or write. If he could, he would have been able to read the true account of what happened before he botched it up trying to dictate it to scribes. The more I read of Muhammed the more I am amused that people actually think this is a religion. Its a joke really. The Wiccas have more acurate scriptures then Muslims.

Oh and BTW, if the islamic paradise is white raisens and dried fruit, I want nothing to do with it.

Cyrizian
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Rhuan



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is one problem with Josephus's account, there are at least three versions of it... Generally it is beleived that it confirms that Jesus lived and was killed on the cross, and that some peopel beleived him to be the messiah, the version that has been quoted above is normally bleived to have been modified by a christian copyist.

For more discussion of this, see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
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Last edited by Rhuan on Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josephus's account says nothing as to what was done to prove that he was dead.

Light breathing, a faint heartbeat, and no movement may look dead, but it isnt.

Secondly, Josephus was around in 93 AD. To someone at that time, volcano eruptions and earthquakes would be seen as "distasters from the gods," as opposed to plate tectonics. Hypnotism would have been seen as miraculous, whereas nowadays we understand (mostly) how its done.

Also, Josephus doesnt give an account as to what miracles.

"He was the Messiah" - yeah, secular ...

Quote:
Jesus really existed and he really did these things.

When did I say he didnt exist?

Quote:
instead he called it the "injel" ROFL!
He thought the name "alexander" was al-eskandar so he called him eskandar and left off the "al" because he thought, wait for it.......alexander was a muslim! ROFL 2X!
And he even mispronounces Yeshua's greek form "Yesuh" as Isa

...Yes ...
Kinda like the Persian word for Germany isn't Deutchland, its AlmAn, and the latin word for Purushotthama is Porus, and the Greek word for Kourosh is Kiros.

Also, the word for "Alexander" is somewhere in this noun phrase: "Arda Wiraz Nāmag" (old persian)

the article "Al-" simply means "the." It has nothing to do with islam.
Besides, the A in Alexander is pronounced /a/, whereas the a in al is pronounced /ɯ/.

I mean, come on! What was that?!

Quote:
fool couldn't READ OR WRITE

He was taught to by Gabriel.

Quote:
Jesus and all the prophets of the Bible were scholars

So now god discriminates by IQ?
Prophethood's based on good deeds and stuff, not literacy.

Quote:
Oh and BTW, if the islamic paradise is white raisens and dried fruit, I want nothing to do with it.

METAPHOR!!

EDIT: having seen rhuans post, my post is based on cyrizians
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