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Quotes from the Quran
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:15 am    Post subject: Quotes from the Quran Reply with quote

Some say Islam is peaceful. That is has been hijacked by extremists. But after reading the Koran, I think the extremists are right. This is nothing added, 100% pure, grade-A Islam. And my country and my people will continue to die as long as they believe in nonsense like this...

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:7Cool

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah's cause.

Allah will give "a far richer recompense to those who fight for him" (Sura 4:96).

Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate enemies" (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere" (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly" (Sura 4:90). "Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193). "Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12).

If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him" (Sura 22:7Cool

Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).
Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55

"A man can have sex with sheep, cows and camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine."
Khomeini's "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."
The Little Green Book, Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Political, Philosophical, Social and Religious, ISBN number 0-553-14032-9, page 47

When I read things like these I weep for Iran. I almost feel ashamed to be an Iranian. And then I remember it is being forced on my people by a cruel and corrupt government. But the shame still lingers. WE MUST PUT A STOP TO IT NOW!!! So our children and grandchildren never feel this awful shame!

Cyrizian
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, my dad just went out and bought a big book called Tafsir-e-Kabir, which is the interpretation of the Quran from the Ahmadi viewpoint. It's half a metre thick, with A4 pages. I recommend you get yourself a copy, you'd be able to understand a lot better.

If you're wondering why I havent explained all these quotes yet:
1. cba
2. i'm not actually sure if im allowed to open the box it came in


Can I just ask, where did you get these quotes from? I'm checking with the other Qurans I have and all the ones you've posted seem a little .. OTT. It seems the translation you have is deliberately OTTised to make it sound bad.


Secondly:
Quote:
"A man can have sex with sheep, cows and camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine."
Khomeini's "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."
The Little Green Book, Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Political, Philosophical, Social and Religious, ISBN number 0-553-14032-9, page 47


riiiiiiiiggghhhhtt ..........
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I forgot the last 3 quotes are from islamic scholars. Not actually the Koran itself.

what does OTT stand for? or CBA?

Oh and what other viewpoint is there when it says things like "I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)"

Allah is a terrorist! No wonder those guys try to imitate him.

Cyrizian
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
what does OTT stand for? or CBA?


Wow. Someone who doesnt know 1337 posting on a forum.
I have to make a record of this.

ott = over the top
cba = can't be asked

Oh, and, can u reall call "It is fine to have sex w/ goats if blah blah blah" scholarly?
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wow. Someone who doesnt know 1337 posting on a forum.
I have to make a record of this.

Actually I know alot of 1337. But those are 2 that Ive never seen before

What do you mean it can't be asked? You cant open the box the book came in?

The version of the qoran I'm quoting is the N.J. Danwood translation.


Cyrizian
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean, from http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/koran.html? (i noticed both you and the website made the same spelling mistake - his name's Dawood). Admittedly, I have never heard of that one.

But still, I do recommend buying a Tafseer-e-Kabeer if you want to understand it better. Although it's incredibly expensive (I've found one on the internet for $160, the one we bought was 40 from a bookstall at the previous Jalsa) it does cover pretty much everything.

Alternatively, you may be able to find an online version at our website: http://www.alislam.org/. There are also a ton of other articles explaining ... a lot.

cant be asked = am to lazy to do so
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

But still, I do recommend buying a Tafseer-e-Kabeer if you want to understand it better. Although it's incredibly expensive (I've found one on the internet for $160, the one we bought was 40 from a bookstall at the previous Jalsa) it does cover pretty much everything.


Can I ask why it costs so much?

Well I have spent a few hours studying your religion and I want to ask a few questions from your point of view. I have no intention of becoming an Ahmadiyya, but some things make no sense to me.

1 Are you part of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement or the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community?

2. Do you really believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the second coming of Jesus? If so, why?

3. How can Mirza Ghulam Ahmad be a phophet if Muhammed was the "final prophet"?

4. What do you think of his claim that Jesus was dead, and had in fact escaped crucifixion and died in India? Why would Jesus go to India?

5. If you believe that he was Jesus, Why then did he do no miracles or heal anyone? Why do few if any people outside of India know about him? (I would never have heard about him except because of you.)

Seriously, I have met crazy drunks on the street that say "I am Jesus," If your going to make that claim you better have the goods to back it up. And I can find next to nothing significant about Ahmad.

Confused Confused Confused I am so very confused about this...

Cyrizian
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Rhuan



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, my friend actually gave the wrong meaning of cba, it actually means: can't be assed

Secondly, I can never understand his ideas of what the quran means, whenever I quote a section of it to him he normally just says it's a bad translation, or ignores me...

i.e. A quotation from Surah 4;89 of the Noble Quran stating, "Those who reject Islam must be killed. If they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them".

I emailed him thart refferrence a few days back, but got no response...

I personally can't see how anyone can follow this "religion", to sum up one half of my argument, the fact that the quran logically falls apart: http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

And now, the other half of my argument, that the quran preaches violence, hate, murder, terroism, and more: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/011397.php
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Rhuan, welcome to the board.

Unfortunately its true. Islam does not encourage its adherants to debate the legitimacy of the qoran. "Its the holy Qoran! If you have a dispute its because of a bad translation!" LOL!

I have no problem with people attacking my religion as long as I get to sit them down and talk about it face to face.

I think the best way to judge a religion is by the man behind the religion. The truth is that people of a religion try to BE that person. And Muhammed is one of the worlds most reviled people. Just because of his lifestyle.

In my opinion, Jesus is the best thing that ever happened to planet earth, If everyone acted like Jesus, there would be no war, no evil, no poverty, no jealousy, no cruelty. Only mercy, kindness and self-sacrificing love. As a Christian I hope to BE Jesus. May God have mercy on anyone who wants to BE Muhammed...

And your right, the Qoran contradict itself ALOT! But all I ever hear in response is "BAD TRANSLATION" or "You really need to learn Arabic to understand it"

Confused Confused Confused Confused

Why would God only speak Arabic? Seriously, this religion takes all of my patience (of which I have alot) to wrap my mind around it.

Cyrizian
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok rhuan, i didn't get ur email. dunno y.


Quote:
Can I ask why it costs so much?


it's half a metre thick and probably weighs about half as much as you. (update: it's all in urdu)


Quote:
Are you part of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement or the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community?


The 2nd one (Ahmadiyya Muslim community)


Quote:
Do you really believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the second coming of Jesus? If so, why?


Yes.

my reasons for believing this (in order of importance):

1. His coming was prophesised by both Muhammad pbuh and the bible. Mohammad gives a specific time frame, saying that there will be both a lunar eclipse and a solar eclipse in a set time (i think it was a month). The bible says that Christ will return with a sword in his mouth and shortly after that, there will be a huge war. Mirza Ghulam came in the late 1800s, and then after that, you had the 1st and 2nd world wars, the cold war, and now the ME crisis. In fact, there has been more conflict since 1900 than in the remaining history of the world before that. The "sword" that Jesus comes with in revelations are the various ways we Ahmadis use to propogate our message: internet, TV, radio.

2. Gog and Magog are supposed to get destroyed after his second coming. In Islam, Gog and Magog (Yejuj and Mejuj) are the Americans and the British Empire (either that, or the Soviet Empire). One of them has disappeared. Gog and Magog are meant to act all nice to everyone, however, they are also meant to take everything from the Tigris and Euphrates - this may be the war for oil that George Bush fought in Iraq. He used the pretense of a war on terrorism, but in reality, Hussein had been in power for 30 years before he invaded, presumably, he had been committing all these killings before 2001.

3. Jesus, after he was taken off the cross a few hours after the crucifixion, migrated to India to help out "the lost tribes of Israel." His grave is in Kashmir. Mirza Ghulam was born in Qadian, Punjab, which is very close to Kashmir.

4. It was prophesised that most people and faith and general would get corrupted. Mirza Ghulam came and removed the corruption from Islam - he gave full rights to women again (the first time was with Mohammad), removed practises of honour killings, and the Khalifas published many books and articles explaining the quran and hadis.


Quote:
How can Mirza Ghulam Ahmad be a phophet if Muhammed was the "final prophet"?


This is the excuse that the Pakistani government gives for persecuting us (and, presumably, the Iranian one if we were to go there). Mohammad was the last prophet carrying new laws. Mirza Ghulam simply reinforced those laws, and purified Islam - eg: there is no Sharya in Ahmadiyyat, as none of that was the word of god, it was interpretations by various muslims. Ahmadiyyat also removed regional influences, eg: honour killings, hijab (although our women AND MEN are told to cover up (the same areas), theres no specified piece of clothing. Anything will do: hoods, hats, scarves, heck, even helmets would do.). Also, various Islamic people had limited the rights of women - eg: in late (1850ish onwards)Ottoman Turkey, or like in modern day Iran. Ahmadiyyat gave full rights to women, as there is no instruction forbidding women from doing certain things in pure Islam. Ahmadiyyat also heavily discourages polygamy (or even forbids it) as nowadays, there is no need (polygamy was for population expansion, nowadays such a population expansion would put a heavy strain on the earth). However, there are no NEW laws, only old ones reinforced.


Quote:
What do you think of his claim that Jesus was dead, and had in fact escaped crucifixion and died in India? Why would Jesus go to India?


The Islamic Jesus was a human, not a god. Hence, he died. He migrated to India to preach to "the lost tribes of Israel." There is a paper written by the Ahmadiyyat which scientifically proves that the spear that the roman stabbed Jesus on the cross with missed any major veins and arteries, and so blood wouldnt gush out, and the romans thought he was dead. Someone took him down, and then he recovered, then went eastwards to continue preaching.


Quote:
If you believe that he was Jesus, Why then did he do no miracles or heal anyone? Why do few if any people outside of India know about him? (I would never have heard about him except because of you.)


Its the job of doctors to heal people. Not prophets.

The Islamic view of "miracle" is "something that can't be explained by science of the day." For example, the fish and bread miracle that jesus did can be explained quite simply: Everyone was so touched that they contributed a little bit of their own into the baskets, and seeing as there were thousands of people, that was a lot of contribution. Mirza Ghulam didnt do miracles because in the late 1800s / early 1900s, science was fairly advanced, and any "miracle" would simply be a "something that can be explained with a couple of physics formulas."

Another thing: several of the miracles in the bible should be taken as metaphors. For example: Jesus giving sight to the blind people can be interpreted as converting them - showing them the right path.

The reason so few people in the western world know about him (The Ahmadiyyat is very popular in Africa, Germany, and India, as well as several other european countries) may well be the stereotyping of Islam. Nowadays, everything Islamic or Muslim is considered evil. People are not open enough to research Ahmadiyyat of Mirza Ghulam, because in their opinions, its simply another terrorist cult. They couldnt be more wrong if they tried.


Quote:
Why would God only speak Arabic?


Why would god do Hebrew? God gave the Quran in Arabic becaue ... hey ... Mohammad was Arabian. How's that for logic!


Quote:
And Muhammed is one of the worlds most reviled people. Just because of his lifestyle.


What, exactly, about his lifestyle?

You will probably critisise him for waging war on the other Arabs. That war was a last resort - Mohammad had tried escaping with his followers from Mekke to Medine. In Mekke, his followers were still being persecuted. Fathers would kill their sons and daughters, they would whip them, stone them, and kill them. All this time, the Muslims were still peaceful. They werent lashing out or attacking their killers. After a while, the Mekkans decided to completely destroy Islam and waged a war on Medine. Mohammad only ever fought in self defense. Consider it like what happened when Moses attacked the Medianites, only A HELL LOAD more tolerant.

Besides, in the west, people like Richard Lionheart are praised massively, however, he was FAR more brutal than Mohammad in his wars. Plus, he was on the offensive.

PS: I know neither of you will actually accept anything I've just said, so why did I bother saying it ? Confused Confused


@ Rhuan: Get a Tafseer-e-Kabeer. Itll explain that verse far better than I could. But I'll give it a shot:

1. WHAT THE HELL! WHERE ARE YOU QUOTING FROM?

4:89 (literal translation):
Quote:
What is the matter with you that you are divided into 2 parties regarding the hypocrites? And God has overthrown them because of what they earned. Desire ye to guide him whom God has caused to perish? And for whom God causes to perish, thou shalt not find a way

cough, cough

All this means is that whoever is completely blind to the truth, you cant convert him. Where's the killage?


Quote:
I have no problem with people attacking my religion as long as I get to sit them down and talk about it face to face.


Same. Only, I don't like talking to brick walls.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Same. Only, I don't like talking to brick walls.

You'll find that this "brick wall" has very good ears.

Thats a pretty fair interpretation of things. Although if I believed in those prophesies then I could constrew them to mean practically anything... No specific times or dates like in old testament prophesy. It could happen in any time or any place...

I have a very serious problem believing that Jesus could have gone to India. He was born in Israel and he lived in Israel, his ministry was in Israel, He was killed in Israel. Nowhere in any prophesy in the old testament does it say that the messiah will go east after almost getting killed. Its almost like the Mormons say that Jesus came the America, its just not possible. "lost tribes of Israel", huh? there is no evidence to suggest that they are or were in India at any point in time. At the time of Jesus, it was believed that the lost tribes were in Persia or thereabouts.

Quote:
Its the job of doctors to heal people. Not prophets.

The Islamic view of "miracle" is "something that can't be explained by science of the day." For example, the fish and bread miracle that jesus did can be explained quite simply: Everyone was so touched that they contributed a little bit of their own into the baskets, and seeing as there were thousands of people, that was a lot of contribution. Mirza Ghulam didnt do miracles because in the late 1800s / early 1900s, science was fairly advanced, and any "miracle" would simply be a "something that can be explained with a couple of physics formulas."



Your saying you dont believe that the miracles ever happened.

Forgive me, but thats what Jesus DID! He wouldn't be so well known today if all he did was just a bunch of hocus pocus. He brought people back from the dead after 4 days, he brought himself back after 3.
Why do you think he caused such an uproar 2000 years ago?
Because he preached a few good lessons? Dude, He changed EVERYTHING! He scared the living hell out of the romans (who thought of themselves as god on earth) the pharisees tried to kill him several times because they couldnt find a way to discredit him. He healed people who were blind all their lives! No one could lay a hand on him until the appointed time.
Lets face it, Jesus could break the physical laws of the universe. You try walking on water. Im saying that you cant pass this off as just rumors. There is just too much to the contrary.

Quote:
Why would god do Hebrew?

He didn't. He speaks to everyone in different languages. I have heard His voice and it really doesn't sound like english. Its more like images and understandings. Its actually alot more efficient and profound than using any human language. I think this is how Adam and Eve communicated with God.

Quote:
What, exactly, about his lifestyle?


How about what he did to women? and little girls? hmmm?
How about that he warred against other nations for the spoils?
How about the fact that some of his wives-to-be committed suicide rather than be with him? (thats a big hint)
How about the fact that people are still killing for islam? (its not a last resort anymore)
How about his intolerant behavior?
How about the fact that he never helped a single person in his life? (besides himself)
I could go on but you get the picture...

You might find this interesting, http://answering-islam.org.uk/Testimonies/index.html
This is a list of many muslims that have converted to christianity. You may find some insight among their stories.

Also many muslim friends of mine have told me stories of friends of theirs in the middle east that have dreams of a "man in white." So many muslims have seen this man in white that they have made a website for people to congregate. The apostle paul had the same vision. You should check it out.
http://isaalmasih.net/isa/dreamsofisa.html
I have a feeling that you will have this dream soon, if you haven't already. If you see him, don't be afraid, you couldn't be safer. BTW tell him Hi for me.
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The brick wall really applies far more to Rhuan (yes, unfortunately I do know him personally he goes to my school) than it does to you.

Quote:
It could happen in any time or any place...

How many times in the history of the world have we had a solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse in the same month?

Quote:
At the time of Jesus, it was believed that the lost tribes were in Persia or thereabouts.

Persia (Parthia, at that time (WOO PARTHIA)) was right next to Bactria and the Mauryan Empire. Although the area which now is Kashmir was part of the Mauryan Empire, it was probably right on the border with Parthia.

Besides, the ascension is only mentioned in 2 of the gospels. however, recent scientific investigations have proved that it was an interpolation. (no offense)

Quote:
Lets face it, Jesus could break the physical laws of the universe. You try walking on water. Im saying that you cant pass this off as just rumors. There is just too much to the contrary.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the new testament written down about 100 years after Jesus? I think that the 4 gospel authors were big fans of Jesus. Things such as this may be metaphors and exaggerations to make Jesus sound more godly.
There is a book which Mirza Tahir (our 4th and now deceased Khalifa) published called "Christianity: A journey from fact to fiction." It explains several of the stories in the gospels from a scientific and sceptical manner. btw, it doesnt call Christianity evil, all it does it de-metaphor some things in the bible.

Quote:
He didn't. He speaks to everyone in different languages. I have heard His voice and it really doesn't sound like english. Its more like images and understandings. Its actually alot more efficient and profound than using any human language. I think this is how Adam and Eve communicated with God.

Like dreams. I recently bought a book in Islamic dream interpretation.
Apparently, women and girls are good luck symbols.
Which makes sense - I've been experiencing a spell of luck.


Quote:
How about what he did to women? and little girls? hmmm?

What did he do to women?
If you're talking about Ayshe ("little girls"), one of his wives, SHE WAS 20ISH. NOT 7. There is some evidence for this on Wikipedia, as well as this site done by the Lahore Ahmadiyyat:
http://aaiil.org/text/acus/islam/aishahage.shtml

With other children, there is a book "The holy prophet's kindness to children." Here are informations contained in the book:
1. Mohammad outlawed infanticide. Female infanticide used to be very common in pre-islamic Arabia, Mohammad outlawed them
2. Mohammed instructed parents to show respect to their childdren, to be kind and have discussions about things which are important to them
3. he instructed parents to distribute inheritance equally amongst all children, not just the oldest, as it was in pre-islamic arabia
4. He placed great importance on education of girls.
5. People were instructed to pray for the betterment of their children
6. People were instructed to take very good care of orphans. Poor treatment of orphans was still widespread in 1800s Europe.
7. An incident about fair dealings with children:
Person: Will you please be my witness that I have given such and such property to this son of mine?
Mohammad: What about your other kids. Do they get the same?
Person: No.
Mohammad: Don't be unjust on them (colloquialised by me:D)
8. ... there are others mentioned in that book

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How about that he warred against other nations for the spoils?

Huh?
He fought the Arabs in self defense to stay alive. There was also a sense of unification - Islam is seen as a unifying force. In the early days, there was a Pan-Arab type movement, which put them on a collision course with both Persia and Byzantines. There were strictly defined laws on how to treat conquered peoples: dont kill civilians, dont destroy the soil, dont cut trees, dont kill animals, etc.
Also, the Persian Shehenshah did send a group of assassins to kill him.

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How about the fact that some of his wives-to-be committed suicide rather than be with him? (thats a big hint)

You'll have to be a little more specific than that. I've never heard of such incidents

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How about the fact that people are still killing for islam? (its not a last resort anymore)

Well, I cant answer for them (nor do I really want to).
But then again, christians in Ireland, christian terrorism in northern India (do a google search). Western media overexposes anything bad muslims do, but misses out other things.

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How about his intolerant behavior?

Once again, You'll have to be a little more specific than that. I've never heard of such incidents.

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How about the fact that he never helped a single person in his life? (besides himself)

So, buying slaves for the sole purposes of immediately freeing them counts as selfish? Hazrat Bilal is a prime example (he actually chose to say with Mohammad, he was so touched by his kindness). He treated slaves like other people, and would bid extremely highly simply to free them.

There is a book written by Hazrat Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud Ahmad. It is pretty much a complete biography. I suggest you take a look at it - it'll present a completely different viewpoint to the one you've displayed.

There's also this, but its no where near as extensive: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/lifeofprophet.html
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Rhuan



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anusiya, we've had these arguments before, many times, and you know that I hold nothing against you, only against this set of beliefs you follow, it is so ilogical in places, and dangerous in others, that I struggle to understand how you can follow it.

Regarding that verse, surah 4 verse 89, it was only a partial quotation, I'm not sure which translation it was from, I took it from something written by a convert from Islam to christianity, someone who was nearly murdered more than once because of changing his faith. Now, I will take the whole verse, as written in the wikiquran which you have often told me to look at:
Quote:
They hope that you would reject as they rejected, then you would be the same. Do not take any of them as allies until they emigrate in the cause of God. If they turn away, then take them and kill them where you find them; and do not take from them any ally or supporter.


You say you have no problem with people attacking your religion... I remember quite differently, I won't mention specifics at the moment, I don't ish to embarress you, even if you don't any more think of me as a friend, I still think of you as one, and I am sorry if I have given you cause for grief.

The whole Jesus got off the coss thing is literrally impossible, unless he was raised by some miracle at the time, he'd been flogged, ten he'd been hanging from a cross all day, hanging from nails through his wrists and ankles all day, he then had a spear thrust into him, and fluid poured out. I cannot see any way that he could not be dead after that, except through divine intervention.

Furthermore, your idea of miracles... I almost find laughable, but I shall leave that for another day.
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what ... I have absolutely no idea how the quote I quoted changed into the one on WikiQuran.

Sorry for the typical excuse but ... mistranslation?

Quote:
except through divine intervention.

He he he. Well, i dont see why god wouldnt want to save one of her prophets, so ... well yeah, she may well have intervened.

Quote:
Furthermore, your idea of miracles... I almost find laughable, but I shall leave that for another day

YOU AGREED WITH THAT VIEWPOINT A YEAR AGO!!!!

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you know that I hold nothing against you, only against this set of beliefs you follow

Oh come on! If you knew me at all you'd know that its near impossible for me to separate bits of my life into distinct little blocks so that when one gets upset the rest are ok, and that i treat everything that I do as part of myself.

Quote:
I still think of you as one, and I am sorry if I have given you cause for grief.

You really dont know me at all, do you?

EDIT:
4:90 goes something like that which you posted.
Quote:
They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become alike. Take not, therefore, friends from among them [see point 1], until they emigrate in the way of god. and if they turn away sieze them and kill [see point 2] them wherever you find them, and take no friend nor helper from them;


1. This refers to the Bedevin tribes of Arabia in early Islamic times. 4:89 shows that some early muslims were unsure as to what to do about them: some wanted to show leniancy in a hope that they would reform, some saw them as a threat to be subjugated. The Quran tells Muslims not to have freinds with the Bedouin (Bedouin ≡ Taazi)

2. Because "Qatl" is used here in the sense of severing all social contacts with them, the expression "Uqtuluhum" may also mean "have nothing to do with them." This meaning finds support in "take no friend nor helper from them" (how can you shun them if they're dead?)

Take great note of the colon at the end of 4:90. It is not a complete sentence. The sentece is finished in 4:91:
Quote:
Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, while on their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. and if god be pleased, she could have given them power against you, then they would have surely fought you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then god has allowed you no way of aggression against them


I think that makes it quite clear, don't you.
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Rhuan



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First you say that divine intervention never occurs, then you claim that it did... I won't go further atm.

I have no recolection of agreeing with this viewpoint of miracles that you have put forward.

Sometimes I wonder....
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