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The Meaning Of a Religious Democracy
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Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Blank,

Our "guest" has apparently decided that being a registered member is no longer viable...as "Shahriar"'s post all bear that guest designation.

Now, I listen to my gut, and it wasn't screemin "IRI" as I read his posts...this fellow's obviously got some re-thinking to do on the whole history of the regime....and if you haven't totally insulted him and driven him off in disgust....then perhaps you may consider the fact that he may just have come here for an education, not to "report" on things...but to interact in a civil manner...and regardless if his understanding may be flawed as we understand the truth....there's better ways to go about fostering his understanding that the way you are going about it.

"Good thoughts, good words, good deeds" is not just an intellectual excercise.

Nor is the concept just of Persian origin, as the "good sayings" here will attest to. So this should give both our "guest" and yourself some real substatial food for thought:

Back to Ancient History Sourcebook |
Ancient History Sourcebook:
The Precepts of Ptah-Hotep, c. 2200 BCE

Precepts of the prefect, the lord Ptah-hotep,
under the Majesty of the King of the South and North,
Assa, living eternally forever.
The prefect, the feudal lord Ptah-hotep, says: O Ptah with the two
crocodiles, my lord, the progress of age changes into senility. Decay falls
upon man and decline takes the place of youth. A vexation weighs upon him
every day; sight fails, the ear becomes deaf; his strength dissolves without
ceasing. The mouth is silent, speech fails him; the mind decays, remembering
not the day before. The whole body suffers. That which is good becomes evil;
taste completely disappears. Old age makes a man altogether miserable; the
nose is stopped up, breathing no more from exhaustion. Standing or sitting
there is here a condition of . . . Who will cause me to have authority to
speak, that I may declare to him the words of those who have heard the
counsels of former days? And the counsels heard of the gods, who will give
me authority to declare them? Cause that it be so and that evil be removed
from those that are enlightened; send the double . . . The majesty of this
god says: Instruct him in the sayings of former days. It is this which
constitutes the merit of the children of the great. All that which makes the
soul equal penetrates him who hears it, and that which it says produces no
Beginning of the arrangement of the good sayings, spoken by the noble lord,
the divine father, beloved of Ptah, the son of the king, the first-born of
his race, the prefect and feudal lord Ptah-hotep, so as to instruct the
ignorant in the knowledge of the arguments of the good sayings. It is
profitable for him who hears them, it is a loss to him who shall transgress
them. He says to his son:
Be not arrogant because of that which you know; deal with the ignorant as
with the learned; for the barriers of art are not closed, no artist being in
possession of the perfection to which he should aspire. But good words are
more difficult to find than the emerald, for it is by slaves that that is
discovered among the rocks of pegmatite.
If you find a disputant while he is hot, and if he is superior to you in
ability, lower the hands, bend the back, do not get into a passion with him.
As he will not let you destroy his words, it is utterly wrong to interrupt
him; that proclaims that you are incapable of keeping yourself calm, when
you are contradicted. If then you have to do with a disputant while he is
hot, imitate one who does not stir. You have the advantage over him if you
keep silence when he is uttering evil words. "The better of the two is he
who is impassive," say the bystanders, and you are right in the opinion of
the great.
If you find a disputant while he is hot, do not despise him because you are
not of the same opinion. Be not angry against him when he is wrong; away
with such a thing. He fights against himself; require him not further to
flatter your feelings. Do not amuse yourself with the spectacle which you
have before you; it is odious, it is mean, it is the part of a despicable
soul so to do. As soon as you let yourself be moved by your feelings, combat
this desire as a thing that is reproved by the great.
If you have, as leader, to decide on the conduct of a great number of men,
seek the most perfect
manner of doing so that your own conduct may be without reproach. Justice is
great, invariable, and assured; it has not been disturbed since the age of
Ptah. To throw obstacles in the way of the laws is to open the way before
violence. Shall that which is below gain the upper hand, if the unjust does
not attain to the place of justice? Even he who says: I take for myself, of
my own free-will; but says not: I take by virtue of my authority. The
limitations of justice are invariable; such is the instruction which every
man receives from his father.
Inspire not men with fear, else Ptah will fight against you in the same
manner. If any one asserts that he lives by such means, Ptah will take away
the bread from his mouth; if any one asserts that he enriches himself
thereby, Ptah says: I may take those riches to myself. If any one asserts
that he beats others, Ptah will end by reducing him to impotence. Let no one
inspire men with fear; this is the will of Ptah. Let one provide sustenance
for them in the lap of peace; it will then be that they will freely give
what has been torn from them by terror.
If you are among the persons seated at meat in the house of a greater man
than yourself, take that which he gives you, bowing to the ground. Regard
that which is placed before you, but point not at it; regard it not
frequently; he is a blameworthy person who departs from this rule. Speak not
to the great man more than he requires, for one knows not what may be
displeasing to him. Speak when he invites you and your worth will be
pleasing. As for the great man who has plenty of means of existence, his
conduct is as he himself wishes. He does that which pleases him; if he
desires to repose, he realizes his intention. The great man stretching forth
his hand does that to which other men do not attain. But as the means of
existence are under the will of Ptah, one can not rebel against it.
If you are one of those who bring the messages of one great man to another,
conform yourself exactly to that wherewith he has charged you; perform for
him the commission as he has enjoined you. Beware of altering in speaking
the offensive words which one great person addresses to another; he who
perverts the trustfulness of his way, in order to repeat only what produces
pleasure in the words of every man, great or small, is a detestable person.
If you are a farmer, gather the crops in the field which the great Ptah has
given you, do not boast in the house of your neighbors; it is better to make
oneself dreaded by one's deeds. As for him who, master of his own way of
acting, being all-powerful, seizes the goods of others like a crocodile in
the midst even of watchment, his children are an object of malediction, of
scorn, and of hatred on account of it, while his father is grievously
distressed, and as for the mother who has borne him, happy is another rather
than herself. But a man becomes a god when he is chief of a tribe which has
confidence in following him.
If you abase yourself in obeying a superior, your conduct is entirely good
before Ptah. Knowing who you ought to obey and who you ought to command, do
not lift up your heart against him. As you know that in him is authority, be
respectful toward him as belonging to him. Wealth comes only at Ptah's own
good-will, and his caprice only is the law; as for him who . . Ptah, who has
created his superiority, turns himself from him and he is overthrown.
Be active during the time of your existence, do no more than is commanded.
Do not spoil the time of your activity; he is a blameworthy person who makes
a bad use of his moments. Do not lose the daily opportunity of increasing
that which your house possesses. Activity produces riches, and riches do not
endure when it slackens.
If you are a wise man, bring up a son who shall be pleasing to Ptah. If he
conforms his conduct to your way and occupies himself with your affairs as
is right, do to him all the good you can; he is your son, a person attached
to you whom your own self has begotten. Separate not your heart from him....
But if he conducts himself ill and transgresses your wish, if he rejects all
counsel, if his mouth goes according to the evil word, strike him on the
mouth in return. Give orders without hesitation to those who do wrong, to
him whose temper is turbulent; and he will not deviate from the straight
path, and there will be no obstacle to interrupt the way.
If you are employed in the larit, stand or sit rather than walk about. Lay
down rules for yourself from the first: not to absent yourself even when
weariness overtakes you. Keep an eye on him who enters announcing that what
he asks is secret; what is entrusted to you is above appreciation, and all
contrary argument is a matter to be rejected. He is a god who penetrates
into a place where no relaxation of the rules is made for the privileged.
If you are with people who display for you an extreme affection, saying:
"Aspiration of my heart, aspiration of my heart, where there is no remedy!
That which is said in your heart, let it be realized by springing up
spontaneously. Sovereign master, I give myself to your opinion. Your name is
approved without speaking. Your body is full of vigor, your face is above
your neighbors." If then you are accustomed to this excess of flattery, and
there be an obstacle to you in your desires, then your impulse is to obey
your passion. But he who . . . according to his caprice, his soul is . . .,
his body is . . . While the man who is master of his soul is superior to
those whom Ptah has loaded with his gifts; the man who obeys his passion is
under the power of his wife.
Declare your line of conduct without reticence; give your opinion in the
council of your lord; while there are people who turn back upon their own
words when they speak, so as not to offend him who has put forward a
statement, and answer not in this fashion: "He is the great man who will
recognize the error of another; and when he shall raise his voice to oppose
the other about it he will keep silence after what I have said."
If you are a leader, setting forward your plans according to that which you
decide, perform perfect actions which posterity may remember, without
letting the words prevail with you which multiply flattery, which excite
pride and produce vanity.
If you are a leader of peace, listen to the discourse of the petitioner. Be
not abrupt with him; that would trouble him. Say not to him: "You have
already recounted this." Indulgence will encourage him to accomplish the
object of his coming. As for being abrupt with the complainant because he
described what passed when the injury was done, instead of complaining of
the injury itself let it not be! The way to obtain a clear explanation is to
listen with kindness.
If you desire to excite respect within the house you enter, for example the
house of a superior, a friend, or any person of consideration, in short
everywhere where you enter, keep yourself from making advances to a woman,
for there is nothing good in so doing. There is no prudence in taking part
in it, and thousands of men destroy themselves in order to enjoy a moment,
brief as a dream, while they gain death, so as to know it. It is a
villainous intention, that of a man who thus excites himself; if he goes on
to carry it out, his mind abandons him. For as for him who is without
repugnance for such an act, there is no good sense at all in him.
If you desire that your conduct should be good and preserved from all evil,
keep yourself from every attack of bad humor. It is a fatal malady which
leads to discord, and there is no longer any existence for him who gives way
to it. For it introduces discord between fathers and mothers, as well as
between brothers and sisters; it causes the wife and the husband to hate
each other; it contains all kinds of wickedness, it embodies all kinds of
wrong. When a man has established his just equilibrium and walks in this
path, there where he makes his dwelling, there is no room for bad humor.
Be not of an irritable temper as regards that which happens at your side;
grumble not over your own affairs. Be not of an irritable temper in regard
to your neighbors; better is a compliment to that which displeases than
rudeness. It is wrong to get into a passion with one's neighbors, to be no
longer master of one's words. When there is only a little irritation, one
creates for oneself an affliction for the time when one will again be cool.
If you are wise, look after your house; love your wife without alloy. Fill
her stomach, clothe her back; these are the cares to be bestowed on her
person. Caress her, fulfil her desires during the time of her existence; it
is a kindness which does honor to its possessor. Be not brutal; tact will
influence her better than violence; her . . . behold to what she aspires, at
what she aims, what she regards. It is that which fixes her in your house;
if you repel her, it is an abyss. Open your arms for her, respond to her
arms; call her, display to her your love.
Treat your dependents well, in so far as it belongs to you to do so; and it
belongs to those whom Ptah has favored. If any one fails in treating his
dependents well it is said: "He is a person . . ." As we do not know the
events which may happen tomorrow, he is a wise person by whom one is well
treated. When there comes the necessity of showing zeal, it will then be the
dependents themselves who say: "Come on, come on," if good treatment has not
quitted the place; if it has quitted it, the dependents are defaulters.
Do not repeat any extravagance of language; do not listen to it; it is a
thing which has escaped from a hasty mouth. If it is repeated, look, without
hearing it, toward the earth; say nothing in regard to it. Cause him who
speaks to you to know what is just, even him who provokes to injustice;
cause that which is just to be done, cause it to triumph. As for that which
is hateful according to the law, condemn it by unveiling it.
If you are a wise man, sitting in the council of your lord, direct your
thought toward that which is wise. Be silent rather than scatter your words.
When you speak, know that which can be brought against you. To speak in the
council is an art, and speech is criticized more than any other labor; it is
contradiction which puts it to the proof.
If you are powerful, respect knowledge and calmness of language. Command
only to direct; to be absolute is to run into evil. Let not your heart be
haughty, neither let it be mean. Do not let your orders remain unsaid and
cause your answers to penetrate; but speak without heat, assume a serious
countenance. As for the vivacity of an ardent heart, temper it; the gentle
man penetrates all obstacles. He who agitates himself all the day long has
not a good moment; and he who amuses himself all the day long keeps not his
fortune. Aim at fulness like pilots; once one is seated another works, and
seeks to obey one's orders.
Disturb not a great man; weaken not the attention of him who is occupied.
His care is to embrace his task, and he strips his person through the love
which he puts into it. That transports men to Ptah, even the love for the
work which they accomplish. Compose then your face even in trouble, that
peace may be with you, when agitation is with . . .These are the people who
succeed in what they desire.
Teach others to render homage to a great man. If you gather the crop for him
among men, cause it to return fully to its owner, at whose hands is your
subsistence. But the gift of affection is worth more than the provisions
with which your back is covered. For that which the great man receives from
you will enable your house to live, without speaking of the maintenance you
enjoy, which you desire to preserve; it is thereby that he extends a
beneficent hand, and that in your home good things are added to good things.
Let your love pass into the heart of those who love you; cause those about
you to be loving and obedient.
If you are a son of the guardians deputed to watch over the public
tranquillity, execute your commission without knowing its meaning, and speak
with firmness. Substitute not for that which the instructor has said what
you believe to be his intention; the great use words as it suits them. Your
part is to transmit rather than to comment upon.
If you are annoyed at a thing, if you are tormented by someone who is acting
within his right, get out of his sight, and remember him no more when he has
ceased to address you.
If you have become great after having been little, if you have become rich
after having been poor, when you are at the head of the city, know how not
to take advantage of the fact that you have reached the first rank, harden
not your heart because of your elevation; you are become only the
administrator, the prefect, of the provisions which belong to Ptah. Put not
behind you the neighbor who is like you; be unto him as a companion.
Bend your back before your superior. You are attached to the palace of the
king; your house is established in its fortune, and your profits are as is
fitting. Yet a man is annoyed at having an authority above himself, and
passes the period of life in being vexed thereat. Although that hurts not
your . . . Do not plunder the house of your neighbors, seize not by force
the goods which are beside you. Exclaim not then against that which you
hear, and do not feel humiliated. It is necessary to reflect when one is
hindered by it that the pressure of authority is felt also by one's
Do not make . . . you know that there are obstacles to the water which comes
to its hinder part, and that there is no trickling of that which is in its
bosom. Let it not . . . after having corrupted his heart.
If you aim at polished manners, call not him whom you accost. Converse with
him especially in such a way as not to annoy him. Enter on a discussion with
him only after having left him time to saturate his mind with the subject of
the conversation. If he lets his ignorance display itself, and if he gives
you all opportunity to disgrace him, treat him with courtesy rather; proceed
not to drive him into a corner; do not . . . the word to him; answer not in
a crushing manner; crush him not; worry him not; in order that in his turn
he may not return to the subject, but depart to the profit of your
Let your countenance be cheerful during the time of your existence. When we
see one departing from the storehouse who has entered in order to bring his
share of provision, with his face contracted, it shows that his stomach is
empty and that authority is offensive to him. Let not that happen to you; it
is . . .
Know those who are faithful to you when you are in low estate. Your merit
then is worth more than those who did you honor. His . . ., behold that
which a man possesses completely. That is of more importance than his high
rank; for this is a matter which passes from one to another. The merit of
one's son is advantageous to the father, and that which he really is, is
worth more than the remembrance of his father's rank.
Distinguish the superintendent who directs from the workman, for manual
labor is little elevated; the inaction of the hands is honorable. If a man
is not in the evil way, that which places him there is the want of
subordination to authority.
If you take a wife, do not . . . Let her be more contented than any of her
fellow-citizens. She will be attached to you doubly, if her chain is
pleasant. Do not repel her; grant that which pleases her; it is to her
contentment that she appreciates your work.
If you hear those things which I have said to you, your wisdom will be fully
advanced. Although they are the means which are suitable for arriving at the
maat, and it is that which makes them precious, their memory would recede
from the mouth of men. But thanks to the beauty of their arrangement in
rhythm all their words will now be carried without alteration over this
earth eternally. That will create a canvass to be embellished, whereof the
great will speak, in order to instruct men in its sayings. After having
listened to them the pupil will become a master, even he who shall have
properly listened to the sayings because he shall have heard them. Let him
win success by placing himself in the first rank; that is for him a position
perfect and durable, and he has nothing further to desire forever. By
knowledge his path is assured, and he is made happy by it on the earth. The
wise man is satiated by knowledge; he is a great man through his own merits.
His tongue is in accord with his mind; just are his lips when he speaks, his
eyes when he gazes, his ears when he hears. The advantage of his son is to
do that which is just without deceiving himself.
To attend therefore profits the son of him who has attended. To attend is
the result of the fact that one has attended. A teachable auditor is formed,
because I have attended. Good when he has attended, good when he speaks, he
who has attended has profited, and it is profitable to attend to him who has
attended. To attend is worth more than anything else, for it produces love,
the good thing that is twice good. The son who accepts the instruction of
his father will grow old on that account. What Ptah loves is that one should
attend; if one attends not, it is abhorrent to Ptah. The heart makes itself
its own master when it attends and when it does not attend; but if it
attends, then his heart is a beneficent master to a man. In attending to
instruction, a man loves what he attends to, and to do that which is
prescribed is pleasant. When a son attends to his father, it is a twofold
joy for both; when wise things are prescribed to him, the son is gentle
toward his master. Attending to him who has attended when such things have
been prescribed to him, he engraves upon his heart that which is approved by
his father; and the recollection of it is preserved in the mouth of the
living who exist upon this earth.
When a son receives the instruction of his father there is no error in all
his plans. Train your son to be a teachable man whose wisdom is agreeable to
the great. Let him direct his mouth according to that which has been said to
him; in the docility of a son is discovered his wisdom. His conduct is
perfect while error carries away the unteachable. Tomorrow knowledge will
support him, while the ignorant will be destroyed.
As for the man without experience who listens not, he effects nothing
whatsoever. He sees knowledge in ignorance, profit in loss; he commits all
kinds of error, always accordingly choosing the contrary of what is
praiseworthy. He lives on that which is mortal, in this fashion. His food is
evil words, whereat he is filled with astonishment. That which the great
know to be mortal he lives upon every day, flying from that which would be
profitable to him, because of the multitude of errors which present
themselves before him every day.
A son who attends is like a follower of Horus; he is happy after having
attended. He becomes great, he arrives at dignity, he gives the same lesson
to his children. Let none innovate upon the precepts of his father; let the
same precepts form his lessons to his children. "Verily," will his children
say to him, "to accomplish what you say works marvels." Cause therefore that
to flourish which is just, in order to nourish your children with it. If the
teachers allow themselves to be led toward evil principles, verily the
people who understand them not will speak accordingly, and that being said
to those who are docile they will act accordingly. Then all the world
considers them as masters and they inspire confidence in the public; but
their glory endures not so long as would please them. Take not away then a
word from the ancient teaching, and add not one; put not one thing in place
of another; beware of uncovering the rebellious ideas which arise in you;
but teach according to the words of the wise. Attend if you wish to dwell in
the mouth of those who shall attend to your words, when you have entered
upon the office of master, that your words may be upon our lips . . . and
that there may be a chair from which to deliver your arguments.
Let your thoughts be abundant, but let your mouth be under restraint, and
you shall argue with the great. Put yourself in unison with the ways of your
master; cause him to say: "He is my son," so that those who shall hear it
shall say "Praise be to her who has borne him to him!" Apply yourself while
you speak; speak only of perfect things; and let the great who shall hear
you say: "Twice good is that which issues from his mouth!"
Do that which your master bids you. Twice good is the precept of his father,
from whom he has issued, from his flesh. What he tells us, let it be fixed
in our heart; to satisfy him greatly let us do for him more than he has
prescribed. Verily a good son is one of the gifts of Ptah, a son who does
even better than he has been told to do. For his master he does what is
satisfactory, putting himself with all his heart on the part of right. So I
shall bring it about that your body shall be healthful, that the Pharaoh
shall be satisfied with you in all circumstances and that you shall obtain
years of life without default. It has caused me on earth to obtain one
hundred and ten years of life, along with the gift of the favor of the
Pharoah among the first of those whom their works have ennobled, satisfying
the Pharoah in a place of dignity.
It is finished, from its beginning to its end, according to that which is
found in writing.

From: Charles F. Horne, The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East
(New York: Parke, Austin, & Lipscomb, 1917), Vol. II: Egypt, pp. 62-78.
Scanned by: J. S. Arkenberg, Dept. of History, Cal. State Fullerton
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Posts: 297

PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our dear welcome "Guest" wrote:

All I am saying is that Ayatollah Khomeini had a solid plan for Iran when he set his foot in Tehran in 1979.

Ha Ha Ha......... and some more Ha Ha Ha........ Laughing

Excuse me while I compose myself before being able to reply.....
You guys on this forum, who complain about these towel-head Arab-parasts posting comments, I want to remind you that if it weren't for these welcomed "guests," we would be deprived of our daily dose of comedy.....I thank you "Guest" for your comical approach to life.

I won't go into an explanation of what is needed now, and what it is that all Iranians want and are fighting for. I think Oppenheimer explained it very plainly and precisely; I don't wish to be redundant.

Instead, let me address the past. Your Ayatollah Khomeini had the intellect of a slightly retarded chimpanzee, the language capability of a parrot with speech impediment, the beauty of a hyena with birth defects, and the blood thirst of a rabid vampire bat. And I wish to apologize in advance to all the chimpanzees, parrots, hyenas, and bats of this world, as well as all animal rights activists who take offense at my analogy; I meant no disrespect to any of you.

How a retarded serial killer with Alzheimer’s could possibly have had a solid plan for Iran is beyond me. Everyone knows that he was a nobody until he was nudged into power by circumstance. He had neither the intelligence nor the charisma to orchestrate that pathetic revolution. He was simply a figurehead until he stepped off the plane. Let’s recall a few things about his past. His father was murdered when he was a toddler, and his mother also died when he was a teenager. He was sent off to be raised by a bunch of towel-heads. Does this kind of background sound familiar? Just look at Saddam Hussein, Khomeini’s mirror image. Just visit any prison in the world, and you’ll see that most of the murderers and other felons have a similar story to tell you. The only difference is that none of those common murderers were ever handed control of a country. Imagine a megalomaniac who up until then felt like the world had always beat up on him. Of course he would seize the opportunity to get revenge for his miserable life. Misery loves company, after all.

So, Mr. “Guest,” what was his solid plan? To give everyone free oil, bread, water, and electricity? To improve Iran’s economy? To improve everyone’s freedom and human rights? To bring peace and stability to Iran? To improve the crime rate and drug addiction? To improve health and education?

Were these his goals, and if not, why not? If these were his goals, please enlighten me how he set about to accomplish them. Seems to me that the only “solid plan” he had was how to ravage the country as much as possible, and how to consolidate his complete and unchallenged power over Iran; that plan worked really well. He was in power for a decade. Show me a single positive accomplishment. And don’t give me any garbage about how he was unable to carry out his plans because others circumvented him; he had absolute power. Unfortunately, he achieved everything he wanted to achieve.

Again, I thank you, “Guest,” for your comedy relief. And please, don’t let the overwhelming aura of Iran’s heritage and glory, or the passion for freedom and justice that is omnipresent at this wonderful forum scare you away to your Bedouin masters. You come back and visit us again some time. Every court needs its jester……….
I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

Naqshe Rostam
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Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't go into an explanation of what is needed now, and what it is that all Iranians want and are fighting for. I think Oppenheimer explained it very plainly and precisely; I don't wish to be redundant.

Dear AmirN,

Well sir, thank you mighty kindly for your confidence in this American of Scandinavian muttly origins who's a simple Buddhist infidel, to think that I've come to a full and complete understanding of what it is the Iranian people are striving to achive with their blood, sweat, and tears....and sometimes tears of laughter....(chuckle).

But I wouldn't worry about the animal lovers of the world being insuted by your profoundly accurate description, I'd worry more about the animals themselves being pissed off. Some of them have long memories, and chimps and parrots can be taught a fairly extensive vocabulary....Lool!

I recall Hitler had a similarly abusive childhood....and if just one artillery shell had landed just a bit closer to that corporal in WW1 , it would have save many millions of lives.

In 20/20 hindsight, I would guess there's many Iranians who would have wished they'd been at the airport to greet the retched founder of the great Iranian tragedy, and put a bullet in his brainpan....sure would have saved a lot of lives and misery in the process.

But, we have to deal with reality as it exists, not as we wished it would have been, nor can it be simply wished away that a future free Iran will have to incorperate a very large Muslim population in the democratic process.

Democracy is by it's very nature, a process of never failing to fail, until it succeeds in total inclusiveness, and the honoring of civil liberty.

It is not the people that serve the state, but the state that serves the people...a state, by for, and of the people without dogma attached.

So until these apostate dogs can no longer rule by dogma in a warped and twisted illusion of self agrandized truth of what God (Allah) really meant when his prophet Mohammed supposedly interpreted that vision (and as we all know to err is human, and there is no word on earth that is not scribed (and interpreted) by man....even if it was God's (Allah's), there will be no such thing as democracy in Iran. Far better that mankind seek his true nature and destiny in a free and transparent debate without fear of reprisal.

Freedom as an inalienable right, manifest as democracy, is therefore best achived if no one claims to know what God (Allah) had in mind for mankind....nor dictate it to others as a prerequisite to being accepted by society, or be cast out as "infidel".

Now obviously there are some common social rules that might serve mankind to better be able to live together in peace...but the "apostates of Islam" have totally ignored them. Certainly calling for a nation to be "wiped off the map" is a perfect example.

Therefore it is incumbent on any Muslim that gives a damn about the future, and the "religion of peace" that Islam is really supposed to be about...(as jihad is in one's heart...the basic struggle with one's self to avoid temptation and evil) then the following must be considered:

URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4711003.stm


Circumstances for jihad
Mufti Rafi Usmani heads Darul Uloom Karachi, one of Pakistan's most respected religious schools, or madrassas.
Jihad is not incumbent on all Muslims and a call for jihad can be given only under special circumstances Mufti Rafi Usmani
"Islam does not allow killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants under any circumstances," he said in an interview with the BBC News website.
Asked to explain the concept of jihad as expounded in mainstream Islamic thought, Mufti Usmani said it had been laid down in great detail precisely to avoid any confusion.
"To begin with, jihad is not incumbent on all Muslims and a call for jihad can be given only under special circumstances," he said.
Islamic scholars - or ulema - agree that injunctions explaining the circumstances for jihad and the people's conduct during jihad constitute the core principles of the doctrine.
According to three top scholars interviewed by the BBC News website, jihad can only be called in the following circumstances:
· If a Muslim community comes under attack, then jihad becomes an obligation for all Muslims, male and female, in that community
· If that particular community feels it cannot fight off attackers on its own, then jihad becomes incumbent on Muslims living in nearby communities
· If a Muslim ruler of a country calls for jihad, then it is incumbent upon the Muslims living under that ruler to join the jihad.
Jihad 'not obligatory'
Mufti Usmani says that even in such circumstances, jihad is obligatory only on as many Muslims as are required to defend the community under attack.
Mufti Akram Kashmiri: Rising tide of Muslim anger
"If Pakistan is attacked but its army is sufficient to deal with the threat, then Pakistani civilians are under no obligation to join jihad," he said.
The second principle relates to the conduct of the jihadis. Under no circumstances are Muslims allowed to attack women, children, the old and the meek, the sick, those that are praying and civilians, say these ulema.
Muslim militants argue that if innocent Muslims are killed in enemy action then Muslims are allowed to kill innocent people in retaliation.
But clerics strongly disagree with this line of thinking, arguing that Islam does not allow Muslims to respond to "a mistake" by another mistake.
"Islam is absolutely clear on this issue. Two wrongs do not make a right," Mufti Usmani said.
"If they feel that the US or the UK are killing innocent civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan, it does not give them the right to kill innocent citizens in London or New York," he said.
(End Excerpt)


When one examines this through the eyes of logic, there are a number of things that are revealed.

1. Terrorists, in their methodology have been killing innocent Muslims, In Iraq, London, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, USA, (9/11), Kenya, Lebanon, and a host of other nations in many attacks over the years.

2. These attacks against civilians…innocents, regardless of any so-called intended target or purpose, political or otherwise are in direct violation of the Islamic code of conduct of Jihad. (Defined above.)

3. These attacks have placed Muslim communities at risk, both directly and indirectly, taking innocent life, and causing political unrest within the religion of Islam.
4. The targeting of Mosques, the division attempted between Sunni and Shiite sects of Islam, as well as the direct threat to the teachings of Islam, also represent a threat to “the community” as a whole.

· If a Muslim community comes under attack, then jihad becomes an obligation for all Muslims, male and female, in that community
· If that particular community feels it cannot fight off attackers on its own, then jihad becomes incumbent on Muslims living in nearby communities
· If a Muslim ruler of a country calls for jihad, then it is incumbent upon the Muslims living under that ruler to join the jihad.

6. The community is under attack. Jihad is an obligation.

7. It is self evident that all communities are being attacked, all peoples, all civilization. Jihad becomes incumbent on Muslims living in all communities.
8. Muslim rulers of Afghanistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Pakistan, Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco, and many others have joined the “war on terrorism” the global jihad against terrorists which includes as it’s allies, and brothers in arms those nations that are not Muslim, but have significant Muslim populations within their sovereign boundaries.
9. These non-Muslim nations, recognizing the risk to all peoples in their lands, including Muslims, have called for solidarity in this fight from all Muslims of true heart and mind.
10. Let there be no ambiguity in this logic. Let their be no hiding place, no sanctuary given, no sponsor of terror, no terrorist left once this jihad against the "apostates of Islam" is justly called for by all Muslims of true faith, and finished.

A free and democratic Iran will be one of the results.

Perhaps it takes a Buddhist to place objective logic in its proper perspective, without bias toward Islam, or cultural tradition.

I would only add that "Cowboy diplomacy" is fully dependant on the strength and temperament of the horse ridden....it's better to ride with a posse, you catch more bad guys that way....(chuckle)
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