[FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great

[Oppenheimer]

Visitor,

No I wasn't referring to you, the fellow from China (living in China currently) had not posted comment.

I just found it interesting in light of Blank's comment regarding Microsoft.
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I have thought about these subjects for many, many years for it is family history that is involved, and a duty to my countrymen that the lessons learned in my granddad's era not be repeated or forgotten.
I cannot tread lightly by any means, nor can I be anything but honest in my assessment of the subject, too much is at stake. Every living thing on this planet to be exact.

When I consider the difference (by definition) between a terrorist and a freedom fighter, The targeting of civilians, and the methods employed may serve. The philosophy behind our revolution, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence, was born from resistance to oppression with "live free, or die." being at the core of it. As Hamid Karzai recently intimated, this is the Afghan jihad, the true jihad, to be free to live in correctness with one another. That jihad lies in one's heart, the struggle to live a correct life, in the eyes of the Creator of all. The commonality of the basic truths behind all the major religions of the world, is apparent to me, who could be so arrogant to think that they were the only ones chosen by God?

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Visitor,

So it is that the "war on terrorism" is fought within Islam itself, as well on the battlefield. And why the president called Islam a "religion of peace." is (or should be) seen in this context.

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Anyone who has witnessed the birth of one's child can tell you that yes indeed you create your own reality, the question is what do we wish to create for ourselves as reality on this planet, now and for our children's, and their children's future? Not just in this country, but the world as a whole, as an international vision.
Inherently, change is viewed with suspicion, as a threat to culture and ways of tradition and ethical belief systems. As it applies to developing countries in this nuclear age, the post-cold war aftermath presents a vast paradox that present no easy solutions, and has culminated in the reality of the war on terrorism as it exists today.

As a citizen who knows the history involved, coming from a reliable source if you will, when I consider the failure to contain the spread of nuclear weapons and associated technology, and the current situation, putting the genie back in the bottle requires a miracle, you cannot un-invent something. From a cold standpoint of probability, nuclear weapons will eventually be used at some point unless the current world situation changes drastically for the better.

"By employing common logic and gut-instinct together with an open mind, one may anticipate miracles as a result." I define "miracle" as something good that defies probability and reasonable explanation for occurring.
If what we have been recent witness to in Afghanistan is example of a miracle, as defined, then there is hope.
Having been in the construction industry much of my life, I can assure you all that we are in fact a nation of "nation builders" on many levels. Politically speaking, since WW2, it has been through "on the job training". The mistakes made in the past, and the correctness of present, or future policy must share one thing, a willingness to look at truth over viewpoint (or party affiliation).

To achieve peace, nations must be brave enough to look at the past in general, and be more creative in future vision than the kid in Afghanistan, who reportedly had nothing he could count on in life, except the anti-tank missile he slept with. I wonder if he's sold it by now, and bought a kite.

The above are selected excerpts from "Isotope Road" a letter to the US gov. and published by the DOE in 2002.

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Visitor,

Don't think for a minute that Mr. Bush is unaware of the things that need to be done to find solutions to terrorism.

Regards,

Oppie

[American Visitor]

[Oppenheimer]

Perhaps you don't realize that the majority of Muslims are not extremist fundementalists.

You may wish to review my posts within this thread in totality so I don't have to repeat the conversation and elements of it that I had with Azadeh55. There's plenty of food for thought there to chew on.

On of the things recently that has point of fact proven the war within Islam is the targeting of moderate clerics in Afghanistan by the Taliban and terrorists like gulbadin hectmayer(sp) , IRI backed, funded and armed.

Take the targeting of mosques and Iraqi (both Shiite and Sunni) civilians.

Now as for terrorists in general, I don't find any difference in methodology or intent, rhetoric or otherwise in basic terms between bin Ladin and al Quaida and David Duke and the KKK...opposite ends of a political spectrum perhaps, but a terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. They come in all colors, creeds and political affiliations.

However, under the first amendment, the KKK has its little parades, protested to the max by those opposed to hate speech and their agenda.

ABC aired an interview with a Chechnian terrorist, and the Russians banned ABC (or won't renue their russian licence to be more accurate) because of it.

Personally, as much as I believe in freedom of speech, you have to draw a line somewhere as to what responsible speech is, and whether inciting hate is a violation or abuse of the right to free speech.

Therein lies the rub whether terrorists will affect free societies in a negative manner regarding civil liberties.

One thing is clear about terrorist intent, that is to create a clash of civilizations and cultures. When one falls into that trap, by condeming all Islam, you have only supported the terrorist's agenda, and furthered the clash of civilizations from the other side.

Read some of my previous posts...no read all of them, then you will get a real good idea why I stand on solid ground here.

Apparently some are getting too much of their education from books (chuckle). Or particular verses from one book, to be precise. A book scribed by man, as God's word interpreted by man, made into law by man.

To err is human.

[American Visitor]

[Oppenheimer]

It depends on how you define "extremist fundamentalists."
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I was refering to the way you have been talking about Islam in general...as if the majority support Bin Ladin's interpretation of Islam.

The fact that a billion Muslims haven't become suicide bombers is self-evident....even playing little head games as you are, you arn't that dense to believe I was refering to this.

Blashemy or not, show me physical proof Allah scribed the words of the original Quoran, or accept my premis that it was scribed by man, in any case, it has been interpreted by man and made into law by man, believing it to be the word of Allah, not Mohammed. Muslims are not stupid either, though some will take a fundemenatlist track, just as there are still folks who believe the Earth is flat.

Point being, if you've bothered to read my posts...or the news, you wouldn't be saying the targeting of Clerics in Afghanistan was some usual Muslim rivalry.

It is in fact the act of terrorists, killing off the moderate religious underpinnings of Afghan society, to drive a wedge between the people and the government. But it is backfiring big time on the terrorists.

If you were to actually sit down and read the Afghan Constitution, you would find it to be the most progressive constitution in any Muslim country on the planet. It has not only given women the right to vote and hold public office, it has protected minorities, the use of multiple languages, and a host of other provisions including free speech, freedom to worship, civil liberties in a modern sence...and at the same time honoring the Muslim laws....but not those verses you claim to be defining of Islam.

There's no cutting off of body parts like the Taliban did, no stoning of women .....better do some research Visitor, I simply don't have the time to properly educate you. Lot on my plate at the moment.

The clash of civilizations is an illusion you've bought, hook line and sinker. One that the terrorists and intolerant foster at both ends simultaneously.

I've read your posts...all of them...and you have a habit of pushing this crap down people's throats, I ain't buying your rhetoric.

Don't ask me to prove a damned thing to you, you'll only be able to realize it for yourself anyway. I can point the way, but that's all anyone can do.

The Afghan Gov. does have a website...and try the web site I posted in this thread to Azadeh55, when she asked for proof as you have.

But maybe you are a little dense, since you fail to see hoe david Duke and the KKK take their warped vision of Cristianity, and pervert it into a facist, holy-er than-though, racist agenda, insipring fear through bombings, murder, and not at all unlike al-quaida in model respects.

A terrorist is a terrorist, and they come in all colors, creeds and political affiliation...

You have the means to find the truth you seek, if you have the will and the openess to look in the mirror as you do so. Just maybe you'll see there's a whole different reality out there than what you believed prior to discussing this with me. But only you can change yourself.

Take care,

Oppie

[American Visitor]

[Oppenheimer]

To disagree or not to disagree is not the question.

Shakespere: Inverse squared.

Its all depending on the interpretation one approaches the table with. You seem to have made your mind up about Islam ingeneral, but it is illogical and unwise to create an enemy out of an entire religious culture's population when a small percentage is actually creating problems.


This is why I object to certain aspects to the the pressure on civil liberties that exist now in free societies. Folks reacting to a real threat to their existance will generally tend to act in extreme ways..fear. Take a Jihadi...I see fear.
Fear that the western society he views as corrupt will overwhelm his culture, traditions, and he's been taught fear, not hope for the future as incentive to get a life, but taught to take one. Fear on the other hand is contagious. Jihadi will by his reasoning be justified in his mind; in interpretation (human) of Allah's word ; Whether admittedly or not this is against god or Haram simply because jihadi is arrogent to "know" what god's words mean. Lot of verses talk about "infidel" as a topic. Jihadi don't realize if Allah was going to spread the word, he would have done so in all cutures, in their own language so they could understand it.
Oh, but the jihadi is convinced that Allah told him that he was special, this interpretation is the only valid one. Not even thinking that those verses may relate to the internal struggle within one's self to self dicipline, the infidel part of one's self must be cut off at the head, for instance.

By comparison the KKK cloaks itself around Cristanity, traditions, ceremony....and teaches hate from day-one to its youngest members, by adult members. Jihadi grew up in a similar environment.
One could look at a Bible, or the Quoran as a textbook on living life, or how to go about it. It is subject to interpretation, and the proof is in the world around you..as you as an individual describe it. Or I do, or Jihadi does, or the KKK or anyone in any other cutural or religious society does.

I tend to look at what's common between folks rather than what's different for the most part. The common things among all peoples outweigh the differences...that's why we haven't committed collective nuclear suicide as a species even as close as we've come to it in the past.

Differences lead to war, and likenesses tend to lead to solutions.

Folks generally will want have to have a decent life, raise their kids in hope they have a decent future and a better present in process.
The human condition then is 2% what happens to you, and 98% how you deal with it, because we live in the present, and can only extrapolate through the past and look to the future in the moment.

To a lot of people, the past is a real screwed up mess and it colors the present, and vice versa....What colors the present creates a real screwed up mess.

I happen to believe, because nothing you've said so far has proven otherwise, that you came to the table in fear of Islam taking over your world, culture, and all that goes with it.
If I think that's dense in attitude when only a fraction of the Muslim world, a cult if you will, has decreed for everyone else what Allah's word means., then it doesn't matter so much what I think about your thinking or mine, but whether it's true or not.

There's as many interpretations of God, Allah, or by any other name, or no name at all, as there are people on the planet.

If everyone believes their interpretation is special, is anyone's?

Back to the table, a lot of Iranians think the EU must be "dense" for ingnoring the nature of the regime, and the effect it has in a negative for the Persian cutural heritage, its people's civil liberties, it's confrontationalism with the west, that not only threatens other people, but inherently threatens Iranians, directly and not.

Global Islam as interpreted as the unelected see fit.

Any facist, totalitarian or tyranical regime or group uses tools to bend the will of the masses to a certain interpretation in accordance with thiers, regardless if there's billions of interpretations out there among individuals.

Free societies then are those where the individual has his interpretation and the right to express it protected by social construct of the rule of law.

Afghan or Iraqi "democracy" isn't going to look like American-Jeffersonian Democracy, nor should it have to. It's ultimately going to have to work for their cultural traditions, as individuals.

When push comes to shove, we in America go through a revolution every four years or so around election time, or at least an insurrection of sorts. We do this peacefully, and by loyal opposition if so inclined. So it is done with individual interpretations put forward in the form of a vote.

So in the sence of those in "loyal opposition" to the interpretation in power, consultation is key to retaining loyalty, respecting and understanding opposing interpretations, by recognizing the common elements that hold society together. Family, tradition, culture in general, and religion. If the law guarrantees the right to voice interpretation, it does not grant the right to force others to agree with it , for it would nulify the individual's right to interpret BY CHOICE.

Therefore it is impossible to force democracy on people as they have choice in the matter, and it is also true when that is said by contrast, tyrany is forcibly imposed on an individual through fear, creating fear in mind and body of the population.

Hitler used the Jews as interpreted, KKK uses race as interpreted, Jihadi uses infidel as interpreted.

But it is all intolerance of ethnicity, and an ego centered vision of superiority in being "special" that leads to defining a general population as "the enemy", rather than individuals within it..forcing that intolerance down it's own population's throat, by various means.

It's kind of hard to sustain intolerance in a diverse society, because intolerance is inherently a threat to it, and will be addressed by other interpretations within society.

Took America a long road to do this, and enacting laws by constitutional amendment to address intolerance of many kinds.

So if I suggest that Islam needs to issue a fatwa to address jihadi terrorism and intolerance, in essence a jihad against jihad, becoming an internal jihad within Islam itself to protect it's social fabric as representitive of Muslim society, and interpretation of Allah's word.

It would be no different were I to suggest to Congress it needs to put the KKK on the list of terrorist groups. Due to terrorism and intolerance. That the law needs constitutional ammendment to protect the social fabric of American society...which is how civil rights legislation was adopted in the Congress, to address terrorism and intolerance.

KKK bombed a church killing people, Jihadi blows up a mosque, killing people...is the fear generated different? Is the method? The result?

"Are you intolerant of intolerance?" You ask..(like some trick question someone playing head games would ask)..."Disgusted with stupidity" is more accurate in answer.

[American Visitor]

[Oppenheimer]

I believe we as a society have missed the mark with our intolerance for intolerance.

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How so?

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For me, the real issue is, do we tolerate violence against the innocent?

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Well let me ask you then how you define violence? Do you include the passive agressive?

A few examples of passive agressive:

famine- starvation, economic, racial and cultural bigotry, silence, political propaganda (as defined by deception, distraction, discreditation, and dismemberment of any "opposing" viewpoint), disease.

As it is said, one can "sin by silence", as it may be the most passive of all agression.

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Do we teach love for all humanity?

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Or do we simply try to create a tolerant mindset among global citizens?

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Do we face down the criminals and tyrants who want to do harm to other people?

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Moot question. In Progress.


Reason I use the KKK as comparitive analysis is that racial segregation in the South was supported by those opposed to change in the status quo..and not silently ( signs placed in restaraunts, "No blacks allowed")

That's just one example of the base support that fed (and created the KKK) and had for a very long time, in a large percentage of the total population in the Southeast US.

I see no difference when Germany under Hitler of the 30-40's had the very same mindset, and methodology...the scale is a bit different, as the KKK has never governed a nation.

The mullahs in Iran have a long history of oppression of all other religious denominations indiginous to Persia..Zoroasterism, Bahai, Jew, Cristian, etc.

All with the intent of creating a monochromatic society, not recognizing that it is those differences that comprise the strength and diversity of society.
America was lucky in one way, that it was a melting post of immigrents, and the various indiginous tribes of peope, while their society was vastly dirupted through bigotry and the colonial mindset of the age, is at least now, not only recognised to be soveign nations within the United States, but there are member of this indiginous culture representive in Congress.

Long hard road to get there. Democracy in its evolutionary process is no picnic for any nation brave enough to experiment with it.

A totalitarian regime unable and unwilling to adapt fails utterly by its very nature to be self sustaining for long (and in long, I'm talking about in comparison to democracy as a system of govenment continuously for over 200 years in the US.)

Hitler lasted for about a decade, Saddam lasted for three, the mullahs are pushing three as well.

Yet you see changes happening. Yemen's leader (of a quarter century) stepping down, to make way for the new generation.

Saudi Arabia adopting representation by vote ( not totally, but a start)

(And you should take into account the vast private donations that were involved, If you had something to show it's government was involved in what you have alluded to, that's a far better way to convince me.)

Again here I stress that if mindset can be changed (which it does anyway, over time.) then so can the future.

Instilling a mindset by force, fear, and propaganda, generally is no match for the force of reason, in individuals.

The rule of the gun is an added dimention that poses other factors on whether something I wrote back the day we started bombing the Taliban.

Oct 7, the 2001


"A revolution is fast opon us, not one from without, but from within, it is one of thoughts. Islam is going to change from this just as we going to be changed, in this let us minimize the finger pointing, in this I suggest we all remember why our feet point forward(to walk upright)and why our eyes are at the front of our heads(to not look backwards while walking). "

"As the memories of Russian bombs are still fresh, so are we also creating memories. My hope is that as with Germany and Japan, the citizens forgive our trespasses as they come to understand the truth of the matter, that their own leaders were to blame."

"In my memories of Watergate, what made me proud to be witness to, was watching as the laws of this nation kept it intact. So too, opon the debate coming about proper nation building, that our laws be the guide, history our teacher, and the individual, our inspiration."

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When one considers the fact that a varied and representitive group of Immams and clerics got to gether recently in Jordan , and issued a ruling that declared bin Ladin "an apostate" of Islam....it follows logicly that (as these individuals represented millions of Muslims in various schools of thought (as these were very influental individuals)...by shura, if one considers the basic forum of consultation and deliberation.

Al Quaida and bin Ladin "appostates"....A total regection of that interpretation of Islam by a great majority of Muslims, as influenced by these teachers of Islam.

Now , logical deduction would bring one to the conclusion that there's more than one way to interpret verse in the quoran as well as the way Islam is dealing with a "cancer" within its own social body.

Just as Congress dealt with Segregation as a "cancer" in American society.

It took people Like MLK to change mindsets with an alternate perspective, and provide possibilities for solutions.

"I have a dream..." was all about perspective, common sense over violence, and precept of vision that could result in permanent resolution.

Took an act of Congress 40 years ago this week to do so. The Voting Rights Act of 1965, assuring democracy in America was inclusive of all people.

Hard to put things to you clearer than this, but how society goes about dealing with an internal illness among the family of nations, is , and must be varied, just as cancer treatment is a combination of therepy to be effective.

"If there is one thing about people that's a given, it's that they can only change themselves. You can try to understand them, change their circumstances, try to point the roads to peace, but in the end, they must want it for themselves, knowing what the alternatives are."

Visitor, there's been more change of government in the mideast in the last 8 months than there's been in hundreds of years....

People are looking at possibilities, solutions to some nagging problems in social structure, education, economics, a forum of the future exists.

Go look for it...(chuckle) I got Michael's Moore's answer to "Dude, where's my country?" It's where you choose to look for it.

[American Visitor]

[Oppenheimer]

"Cultural bigotry is practiced by everyone including you and I."


So you say Visitor...but it is patently false in generalization, you may feel free to include yourself, but since I grew up with bigotry directed against me personally every day, I had a choice whether to become a bigot as a product of my environment in reaction to it, or the choice simply to react in a more positive manner, including kicking bigot's ass, until they figured it wasn't worth their pain and suffering to bother me.

You say we should all learn to love one another, that's all fine with me...sometimes it takes a "tough love" education to bring about a different mindset in others.

Terrorists are by the very essence of their nature...bigots. Intolerant to anything and anyone that does not fit their acceptable criteria. And what defines them as terrorists is the targeting of unarmed and innocent civilians.

This is a broad, universal definition....and the KKK "Klu Klux Klan", a part of the following...meets the criteria.

You'll note the source here as one of the premier data-bases on terrorist org's outside of the US gov.


http://www.tkb.org/Home.jsp

Aryan Nations (AN)
Base of Operation: United States

Founding Philosophy: Aryan Nations (AN) is an umbrella group for factions of the Klan and other right-wing extremists. Aryan Nations founder Richard Butler dubbed Aryan Nation's headquarters in Hayden Lake, Idaho, the "international headquarters of the White race," (ADL, 245), and the white supremacist community seems to agree. The RAND Institute describes Aryan Nations as the "first truly nationwide terrorist network."

Aryan Nations advocates Christian Identity, white supremacy, and neo-Nazism. Its goal is to form "a national racial state. We shall have it at whatever price is necessary. Just as our forefathers purchased their freedom in blood so must we". We will have to kill the bastards." (Butler, quoted in ADL, 244)

Until Aryan Nations lost its Hayden Lake property in 2000, the compound was the site of regular white supremacist festivals known as the World Congress of Aryan Nations. The festivals trained attendees in urban terrorism and guerilla warfare and gave prominent white supremacists a chance to network. The group ran an "Aryan Nations Academy" in the early 1980s to teach young people the principles of white nationalism. The group has been reaching out to prisoners with a message of white supremacy since 1979.

Current Goals: During the 1990s, Aryan Nations suffered from internal struggles, and several key leaders departed. In September of 2000, a jury awarded Victoria and Jason Keenan $6.3 million in damages because the two had been chased and shot at by Aryan Nations guards outside the Idaho compound. Butler and Aryan Nations were bankrupted, and the Idaho compound was seized. The group has currently splintered into three factions: one headed by Butler, one located in Pennsylvania and led by August Kreis and Charles Juba, and a group calling itself The Church of the Sons of YHVH/Legion of Saints (Church of the Sons of Yahweh), led by Ray Redfeairn Morris Gulet.

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"Are we not bigoted against racists and their culture?"


Wrong definition of "bigot" , Playing semantic word games and parsing **** to hell and back will not lead you to a greater understanding.

Again you try and include me in a flatly biased premis of a question designed for idiots who usually like to play semantics with you....Told you before I'm not buying it, and now you are simply pissing me off with your lack of respect. In fact you came off on the wrong foot with me, and you're still hopping around like your trying to catch me in some dicotomy of reason....sorry, better luck next time.

You again equate the culture with the crime, wheras it is individuals who comit them....sometimes society is fully engaged, as slavery was "legal" in the sence no law had been passed against it. Those were the times people lived in then, just as dropping two atomic bombs on Japan were a product of those times, and trying to end a war that had taken 50 million lives, and would have cost between 6-10 million more had the bombs not ended the war, and we'd invaded Japan. Those are the estimates given by Defense Dept at the time...with the war lasting till 48 or so.

Well now you may say that jihad is legal in Islam...but how does this manifest legally?..internally within the individual? or externally against society.. the latter is the basis for bin Ladin being declared an "apostate of Islam"
...or more definitavely..."one who acts against Allah, in the name of Islam".

Times change, people change, and because of change, cultures are subject to the same parameters over time.

What is "fundementalism" if not a reversal of change over time...to go back to a past system is a change as well, an intolerance of progress and change that has to be, in the fundementalist's eyes, reversed back to "the good old days". (to put it in real generic terms, ...Chuckle).


We were speaking of Afghanistan, well there's a real good article you should read in today's Washington Post on ex-Taliban who've elected to be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem. They have embraced change as society is effected inevitably by it, as Afghans have regected the Taliban mindset.

Back at the end of WW2, the Nazi party was disbanded, and no longer a legitimate political org in German society. Even during the Marshall plan, there were the throwbacks to the good ol' days...they were called "werewolves"...ex-Nazi's terrorising folks and occasionally doing harm to allied occupation forces. A lot of Germans were members of the Nazi party, not unlike the Bathists in Iraq today....as individuals, they didn't have a hell of a lot of choice if they wanted a little peace or avoid a knock on their door at night by the Gestapo,... or Saddam's thuggies....no difference with the Taliban...it's habitual with totalitarianism....Stalin's USSR ....Read Kennan's "very long letter" he wrote as "X" back in the late 40's...give you some serious food for thought on the nature of totalitarianism, by any adaptation of form.

But those I mentioned above were individuals, Visitor....Just as America dealt with Slavery, Bigotry, and White supremacists through the rule of law, so have Muslim nations by and large adapted law to deal with the terrorists, and the financing, support, etc. within their respective nations and societies.

As is Islam dealing with what is essentially an internal phenomena affecting individuals by wrong thinking and wrong teaching by INDIVIDUALS within Islam.

The US is dealing with aspects of the geo-political environment that have given rise to the acceptance of those "apostate" teachings as part of the "treatment" of the patient, and Islam itself condems it, with the Quoran itself....you think perhaps they had no reference to decree bin Ladin "apostate of Islam"? They had their law, as given by Allah. Scribed by, and interpreted by man none the less, bin Ladin has been undone by the very book he used to corrupt other's thinking with.

Listen, if the mullahs (and I think they will in UN Assembly, September) are condemed by the international community as a terrorist, bigoted, and murdeous regime, headed by terrorists, bigots and murderers, then you may see another ruling...especially if ties to bin Ladin and Al-quiaida are confirmed.

Rushdi is but one individual....about as influential as Michael Moore in a way. But he doesn't speak for a nation, or influence policy.

What did it take...100 years before America put constitutional amendment to work to protect the freedom and civil liberties inherent to all individuals in the US?

You expect the wake up call Muslims have had, along with the rest of the world to be a "snap your fingers and POOF!" there's no more terrorism.?
You think Rushdi, or even a fatwa against him will change anything, or a call to recind it? It won't make a dent in the problem, because that's only treating a manifestation of it...a symtom...not the disease itself.

What did MLK do when he decided to march to Selma?

What did the US do when it invaded Afghanistan and Iraq?

There's a common denominator in these two seemingly disparate events. And in this I'll also address those who feel the US created terrorists by doing so by going to war.

Here's a metaphor...Ants. How do you deal with a big nasty terrorist ant pile in the middle of your organic garden..you don't want to poke a stick in the hole or do things half-way, nor do you want to use pesicides or other means that would permanently harm the nature of the garden (and you may consider the garden- society, culture, or the planet iself if you like).

What MLK did was set out a jar of honey to attract all the KKK bigots and terrorists, by marching to Selma. All of a sudden folks all across America were suddenly looking...at what up until then , had been done to blacks in the cover of night, and by subtle means of segregation. But MLK exposed it to the whole of America, the church bombings, the crosses burning, beatings, the "dissapeared", and the lynched. A heavy price was paid to do so. Gandi paid a similar price.

Well now, America changed for the better as a result, and after 9/11, (at a time and place of our choosing) we've been dealing with terrorism the same way...the jar of honey in this case is freedom and democracy, not that much different than the honey MLK set out.

So we buried two jars right next to the ant pile, and so far they've collected a lot of dead ants....but more to the point, the US has exposed the problem as one of being global in scale, one which the EU is just getting woken up about.....

Thing is MLK didn't create the bigots that attacked his people on that march, they'd been there all along, hiding in the shadows of the social structure of the deep South.

Nor did we create the terrorists that killed citizens of over 80 nations on 9/11, they hid within the social structure of Islam...and now they are exposed for what and who they are...a menace to civilization, peace, development, and security. A menace to societies all, globally, and Islam is not immune....

You don't see the relevence in a KKK church bombing, and a jihadi bombing a mosque?

Both are acts against God, life, civil liberties, and intended to instil fear for a political purpose.

See, you claim that American culture was in need of reform and it was, but the vast majority of Americans elsewhere had no real conception of the corruption that existed, or the extent of it at least.

You claim that I don't think Islam needs reform...no it needs something else....cancer treatment...the patient must recognise the illness to treat it, that's the first step, whether that is Islam, or whether it be America of the 1960's...it's really a very apt comparitive analysis.

Now Islam knows to what extent the corruption of its teachings has wrought, and knows to what extent it exists within that social structure.

The way to deal with it? Is through their own laws, education...and the leaders of all (with a few notable exceptions) Muslim nations have not just declared war on terrorism as policy, but are actively engaging with the Muslim religious community to deal with the corruption within ranks.

But again it boils down to individuals, and how they address the issue, or what side they take on it, not the Culture as a whole. I wonder if there's a Muslim Gandi out there somewhere....maybe his name is Ganji...but time will tell.

Again, in America, it was a small segment of the population causing problems, and those supporting segregation were a bigger percentage, but not a majority by any means of the whole.

The same is true with Islam.

Now there's a lot of factors at work against terrorism, not just the role Islam must play to address it.....a few years ago I wrote this along with a few other things you've read....and it still makes a lot of sense...and is in keeping with the US being an original signatory to the UN charter...

{ We've been accused of playing world cop, as a nation. If you ask any officer on any street in the U.S. what his/her least favorite call to get is and they'll more than likely say, "Domestic disputes". This is the only politically correct way I can think to describe the current world situation. If we must play that role, they need to understand that there's a new sheriff in town, determined to prevent domestic violence.
This goes as well for the Mideast, the Korean, and other long standing conflicts.
To "protect and serve humanity, and ensure the preservation of civilization, of all cultures, and ways of tradition that an individual or nation has the inalienable right to choose for themselves as they see fit, so long as it harms no other individual's, or nation's ability to do so."
With this as our philosophy, as policy, the "undiscovered country" may become reality. This is not a role that should be played unilaterally, as it is essentially all nation's task.}

- 1/10/2002 (Oppenheimer) "Exit options" - part 2


Note: It was put as an "option" not an "exit strategy", or a "success strategy", as the press and the Whitehouse have been at odds over the terms.

I offered options, simply because who the hell am I to tell my government what to do in wartime? If they chose to have thought about it when it was published in an 18 page letter by the DOE...a broad range of issues intertwined...maybe it gave them some food for thought. A few solutions along with the analysis usually gets folks thinking about the solutions instead of blowing off a citizen's NIE "national inteligence estimate".

Seems like a global problen, demanding a global solution...and it seems that that's exactly the conclusion Mr. Bush has placed into effect via policy and action with partners.

Now, to prove why this quote above rings true with the UN Charter as well, check this out...lot of reading...but after your done you'll understand why I say the Iranian regime is a legitimate "test case" for UN reform in every conceivable way.

http://www.un.org/ga/59/hl60_plenarymeeting.html


This ought to keep you busy for awhile...Chuckle....

[American Visitor]

[Oppenheimer]

Growing up in New Mexico was an interesting experience. Most of my hispanic friends refer to me as a "naturalized gringo" being that my family has been in New Mexico for 4 generations now, they say I "qualify". (chuckle).

Being the only white kid on the bus going to high school was problematic...children learn bigotry from their parents, and act out that education...so yeah, I learned to defend myself, and address the stupidity of that wrong-thinking that manifests as racism.

I think you now see why I would equate the KKK and al-quaida as terrorist org's. The IRI too.


"When the terrorists began blowing up people in Saudi Arabia, it was only a matter of time until their religious establishment would react. "

Check this:

http://www.mpac.org


I said totalitarianism is self limiting by its very nature being unable to adapt to changing society and brittle in its essence because of that.

Terrorism is a manifestation of totalitarianism, and by method is inherently self-defeating.

Democracy without transparency and the institutions and laws to be truly "by, for, and of" the people, cannot be self sustaining.

Every nation has it's own time-line as to how that process unfolds..Pakistan is no exception.

[American Visitor]

[Oppenheimer]

Rather than a parallel, I was getting at a common denominator that underlies both totalitarianism and terrorism.


Fear.

Fear that leads to bigotry, being fear of other cultures...(and why did the folks in the espanola bar try and beat the fellow up? Machismo...is a product of fear as well...beyond drunken stupidity..(chuckle, I'm not at all suprised by this story....) Here's a little history lesson about America:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/08/17/schuster.column/index.html


Intolerance is basicly about insecurity, the rational is simply that history can be used to justify that mindset...as you say colonialism has had long lasting repurcussions...New Mexico was settled by Spanish Conquistadors.

Despite inherent cultural tensions among individuals leading to isolated violence, New Mexico, an area geographically similar to Afghanistan, with multiple local cultures, and refugee communities from around the world, are all living in peace.

I don't know what part of Africa you grew up in, or when, but along with colonialism and slavery...Africans had been taking slaves among various tribes for millenia. How do you define slavery? It can be said everyone of us is an economic slave. Lot of different kinds of slavery out there, Visitor.

We have lived so long with the reality of imminent destruction that we've become numb to being slave to a button being pushed after the turning of a couple keys simulaneously in ways that are as dysfunctional as the "Simpsons" (the animated cartoon).
One cannot simultaneously plan for the American dream, and prepare for Armageddon.

See, Mankind's past is totally dysfunctional, and it's no surprise that the family of nations today is as dysfunctional as it is...we're getting better at being able to kill each other, at a greater rate than social progress can deal with it, it's only in the last couple years that mindsets have started to change. Look at Pakistan and India's nuclear brinksmanship in 2002, today they are at a different point in their relationship, as a matter of survival.

Inherently, change is viewed with suspicion, as a threat to culture and ways of tradition and ethical belief systems. As it applies to developing countries in this nuclear age, the post-cold war aftermath presents a vast paradox that present no easy solutions, and has culminated in the reality of the war on terrorism as it exists today.

I stress here the biggest "what if?" is what we might have accomplished as the Human species had we chosen to live in peace, instead of fear after WW2. So much spent on weapons that can't be used and remain civilized.

If there is one thing about people that's a given, it's that they can only change themselves. You can try to understand them, change their circumstances, try to point the roads to peace, but in the end, they must want it for themselves, knowing what the alternatives are.

It is a rare individual who will lay down his weapons and walk the road to peace.

To achieve peace, nations must be brave enough to look at the past in general, and be more creative in future vision than the kid in Afghanistan, who reportedly had nothing he could count on in life, except the anti-tank missile he slept with. I wonder if he's sold it by now, and bought a kite.

The cold war's fundamental precepts being Mutually Assured Destruction, now that this concept has been abandoned as not being in the public's interest, we must construct a solid international understanding to create a Mutually Assured Peace, literally, though stated with a grain of SALT, as M. A. D. will be reality for many years to come.

What reasonable explanation can anyone give for the combined total between the U.S. and the former USSR's nuclear stockpiles? To be real blunt, reducing the active numbers to around 2000 apiece does nothing to change the fact that we could make this entire planet look like Mars in a few hours time.

There are things I believe in as a Buddhist, that run concurrent with the teachings of Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, and other visionaries and philosophers of the past. Central to Buddhist thinking is that the dualism in the world comes from the same source.

A self-realized human, not a God, or an Idol, Buddha was only a man, who had realized his true nature, and so Buddhism is a practice, a path of enlightenment that may be obtained by all people, as individuals.
One does not have to be Buddhist to find peace within, or in the world, an open, conscious mind, is all that is needed, along with strength of will.
Objectivity can be hard to come by where it concerns family, or politics, as we are all human beings, and of a species prone to emotions, at the expense of logic.

"Logic over emotionalism, Truth over viewpoint, Ethics over all."

Whoever said, "There are no Philosophers in Foreign Affairs.", I'd like to thank, for inspiring me to become one (chuckle).

As a Buddhist, I have no side to be on in this personally, I'm just sick of being witness to the disfunctionality in the world that leads to conflict.
As an American, I view the conflicts as a threat to our national interests and those of the world's community at large.
As a Human, I can only hope for an elevation of the level of consciousness between parties in conflict and among people as we have been recent witness to in Afghanistan, and now in Iraq with various ethnic groups forming a constitution for all Iraqis.

Many times since Sept 11, I have asked myself,
"Who gains from this?","What purpose is served?", " What was the desired outcome?" Questions we have all asked ourselves, over and again.
I believe the answer is very simple: To create a situation that America would be forced to respond to with overwhelming military force, and in so doing, become discredited by the use of indiscriminate force on civilians, and massive "collateral damage"

Our response was not what bin Ladin expected, and totally invalidated his strategy. Humanitarian aid, cooperation with the Northern Alliance, supporting a Loya Jirga, and rebuilding efforts all defused bin Ladin's plans to discredit America.

I think the hardest perception for the U.S. to overcome in the developing nations is that of being arrogant and/or inconsistent in exerting its will, or muscle. Giant steps have been taken so far as this is concerned, to change this viewpoint, in my opinion. If one thinks of nations like the teams of the American league in baseball, is it any wonder that many hate the Yankees? They're almost always in the series. What gives them the respect is the sportsmanlike conduct towards other teams, with few exceptions. This simple example is manifest today in Afghanistan for all to see.
We have an opportunity to preserve this momentum of international cooperation as it is reflected in this country's long term security, and the world's.

If I have a philosophy about how this may be achieved it is this:

"By employing common logic and gut-instinct together with an open mind, one may anticipate miracles as a result." I define "miracle" as something good that defies probability and reasonable explanation for occurring.

If what we have been recent witness to in Afghanistan is example of a miracle, as defined, then there is hope.

Having been in the construction industry much of my life, I can assure you that we are in fact a nation of "nation builders" on many levels. Politically speaking, since WW2, it has been through "on the job training". The mistakes made in the past, and the correctness of present, or future policy must share one thing, a willingness to look at truth over viewpoint (or party affiliation).
As we are on the brink of colonizing Mars (20yrs.?), let us go to the "God of War" in peace, as a family of nations. A family that has overcome its dysfunctionalities.

2500 yeas ago Cyrus the Great instituted a democracy in model modern respects in Persia...however, logisticly in that era (communication, travel, etc.) it was not possible in one lifetime to create the institutions necessary for it's sustainability. Persia reverted back to a Monarchy after his death. There's one historical precedent to consider.

Whether you consider my point of view valid or not is not my concern, simply because I have no attachment to whether you do or not. That's your decision.