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Terror in London - Tehran Sermon by Ayatollah Mohammad Amami
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oppenheimer said

"You don't need to try and teach me... along with a great number of books on philosophy, old and new testements, Conficious, Bhuddist writings, I have a copy of the Qoran as well. "

I would take Azadeh_55 and her understanding of Islam any day over yours. The Iranians come from the Islamic culture and understand it better than anyone who is reading books as an outsider.
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think what you will, but don't believe everything you think, for doing so lends itself to rash judgement.

"if Buddha stands in your path to enlightenment, kill him."

- Buddhist teaching


Substitute Allah as you wish, or God, or....


....your own perceptions.
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American Visitor



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Think what you will, but don't believe everything you think, for doing so lends itself to rash judgement."

I view your statement as a double edged sword.

It only stands to reason that someone actually coming from a culture would understand it better than those who read about it.
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Oppenheimer



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Visitor,

You make a lot of assumtions about me..and true it is that experience is a good teacher, but why would you simply assume all my thinking comes from reading books when I was simply asked if I'd read the Quoran?

You haven't a clue what my experience has been over the years.

Seems to me that the issue I was addressing was because of a certain assumtion drawn from a book (quran verses) by another here. Her experience with Iran's mullah's interpretation, is not a complete understanding of Islan on a global level.

While you sit here in judgement, without facts, accusing me of a lack of understanding because I'm an "outsider" , this too is is a raw assumption, given that you don't know where I stand with the Iranian opposition community.

But you didn't consider all these things before you jumped to conclusions, did you?
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American Visitor



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Assumptions Reply with quote

Code:
You make a lot of assumtions about me..and true it is that experience is a good teacher, but why would you simply assume all my thinking comes from reading books when I was simply asked if I'd read the Quoran?


I'm not sure what assumptions I'm supposed to have made.

Quote:
Seems to me that the issue I was addressing was because of a certain assumtion drawn from a book (quran verses) by another here. Her experience with Iran's mullah's interpretation, is not a complete understanding of Islan on a global level.


Islam is a very large religion and it is probably impossible for anyone to have a complete understanding of Islam or any other religion completely on a global level. Incidentally, I noticed you claim to be Buddhist. Have you visited the Buddhist communities in Afghanistan and northwestern Pakistan?
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why that I have only the understanding from book learning, of course.

That was your first assumption.

Fact is I've seen both the best and the worst of Islam personally, as experienced first hand.

Been Buddhist since 1986, Japanese Rinzai, but as for traveling I hope to one day go to those places mentioned, but I have gone there over the net.

Place I live in has folks from every walk of life, every nation, understanding culture is not a problem when the world is at your doorstep.

Maybe I'm just a lucky fellow, in the right place at the right time, knowing the folks I know. Go figure, in a letter on this thread, was the product of a serious debate among friends after 9/11 to arrive at solutions.

What do you figure the odds of the grandson of one of the leading atomic scientists on the Manhattan project, and the godson of Zahir Shah, knowing each other?

Let alone the odds of the parallel thinking evident in that letter with the way things became manifest in Afghanistan?

I don't know, and I don't presume to even be a good enough mathematician to assess those probabilities.

"astronomical" comes to mind, but life is wierd enough without it being such a small world we live in.

One reason why I cannot appease terrorism or intolerance on any level.
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American Visitor



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why that I have only the understanding from book learning, of course.
That was your first assumption.


Actually my first assumption was that you are not Iranian, and neither am I. It is much easier for us, living in freedom, with the ability to speak our minds at will, to be "objective" than for those whose lives are threatened by tyrants both at home and even when living abroad. The people of Iran don't have a free voice.

Quote:
Been Buddhist since 1986, Japanese Rinzai, but as for traveling I hope to one day go to those places mentioned, but I have gone there over the net.


I'm surprised the "grandson of one of the leading atomic scientists on the Manhattan project" missed my point. There used to be a sizeable community of Buddhists in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The only trace of them was recently destroyed as the great statues were blown into dust. What do you think happened to the Buddhist community who built the statues?

Quote:
One reason why I cannot appease terrorism or intolerance on any level.


Are you saying you are intolerant of intolerance?

What about those intolerant Americans who wouldn't see the good side of the Nazis? Do you think the Americans were wrong to be so intolerant?
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Oppenheimer



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't make a point , you asked a question, which I answered.

Now you are making a point.

"There used to be a sizeable community of Buddhists in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The only trace of them was recently destroyed as the great statues were blown into dust. What do you think happened to the Buddhist community who built the statues? "

Actually there are still many Buddhists, as well as temples in Pakistan.

There are a number of reasons why the settlement in Afganistan that grew and created those statues, was abandoned.
Archeological records, climatic changes, social change within the community, all are simply probabilities.

Take just about any old culture that only has it's record in stone, and wonder why it was abandoned.

BTW, anyone speaking on this forum does of their own free will, but I am also aware that some take great risk to do so.
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American Visitor



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:15 pm    Post subject: Answers Reply with quote

Moving on to something more important:

What do you think is the best way for us as Americans to help the Iranians? Do you think they can gain their freedom by themselves? They certainly have spirit but the enemies of freedom are brutal and have their own interpretation of religion to support them.
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Oppenheimer



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Visitor,

First, it is my belief that Iranians have provided Irainian solutions to solve not only their problems, but the threat the regime poses to the US, as well as the rest of the world.

As Americans, ("...as the Iranian people stand for their own liberty, America stands with you." -GWB), this must be a total non partisan effort, including the power of the press, and the influence in foreign policy America can implement to bring other free nations to a concurrent mindset, in support of the Iranian people's hopes and dreams for a better future in freedom.

The folowing makes too much sense to ignore, and may be the only alternative to prevent hostilities in the future. Personally, I see these solutions already supported by a number of opposition org's, and Reza Pahlavi. There has been in the past, a lot of debate and splits in the opposition, but there is common cause, and common purpose among them, greater now than in years prior.




The "Student Movement Coordination Committee for Democracy
in Iran" (SMCCDI)
_______________________


January 27, 2005

The Honorable George W. Bush
President of the United States of America
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington DC - 20500

Via Federal Express

C/c: Fax (202) 456-2461
e-mail: president@whitehouse.gov
vice.president@whitehouse.gov


Dear Mr. President,

On behalf of the Student Movement Coordination
Committee for Democracy in Iran (SMCCDI), and the good
people of our nation who have striven so long for freedom,
we wish to extend our most sincere and humble thanks and
gratitude for the words you spoke in celebration and
support of freedom for all people. Words ringing out
clearly as the liberty bell itself, when as a witness
described, "It rang as if it meant something.".


Mr. President, be assured that the reverberations of
the ringing clarity of your words have been heard in our
country, and indeed they mean something.
Something extraordinary, for there is again hope in the
eyes of our people that they may shrug off the oppressors
and theocratic chains which have bound the people for so
long. Chains which have silenced the voice of my people in
utterance, and stilled them with overwhelming force. Chains
denying the Iranian people a better future for our
children, and our children's children for over a generation
in this process.


Mr. President, SMCCDI's constant public support for both
yourself, your correct vision, and your policies as
reflected in our last letter of Feb.16, 2004 has been
consistently well founded, just as millions of Iranians
were correct in supporting you and placing their hopes in
your re-election. Our resources and weight of public
support were lent as well to help you defeat your
challenger who, backed by some very controversial
fundraisers of Iranian origin in the process, was pushing
for official ties with the Islamic Republic of Iran. This
was of great concern to our people, both here in the US and
in Iran. The overwhelming majority of Iranians in the US
supported you in this re-election, and have been rewarded
by your words of support for doing so.


Mr. President, Our opposition movement (SMCCDI) is
bound by a charter formed on principals such as; Human
rights, Democracy, separation of church and states, and
free markets. We believe these principals represent the
most fair and efficient means for humanity to realize its
potential. Ultimately, no repressive, intolerant regime can
withstand the spread of these ideals.

The Islamic Republic regime currently in power in Iran or
any Islamic variances that may exist there in the future
are no exception. By staying true to these values our
triumph is absolutely, positively, and undeniably
inevitable.


Mr. President, We the people of the Iranian opposition
groups both within Iran and spread among many free nations,
including the future leaders you spoke of contained within,
can serve not only as a force for freedom and change, but
as a bridge between our two peoples. To serve in the
process of creating a new political structure for the
Iranian people, and a new beginning for Iran and America, a
beginning founded on values, mutual trust, respect,
long-term interests and friendship.


Mr. President, We take the truth in your words to be
self-evident, and those words honor the ideals of your
great civil rights leader, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
expressed in the following: "Today there is no longer a
choice between violence and non-violence. It is either
non-violence or non-existence. I feel that we've got to
look at this total thing anew and recognize that we must
live together. That the whole world now it is one--not only
geographically but it has to become one in terms of
brotherly concern. Whether we live in America or Asia or
Africa we are all tied in a single garment of destiny and
whatever effects one directly, effects one in-directly."


Mr. President, we the people of Iran, are faced not only
with the chains of political and religious oppression,
poverty, despair, drug abuse, and lack of civil liberties.

We of the opposition should have been able to jointly
prepare a correct and specific program during these last
years. We need now to seize these current internal and
external opportunities that exist, to free our country and
respond to our people's legitimate aspirations, and to the
world's concerns.
And through this, we hope to create a coordinated effort to
obtained the necessary moral and financial support that
will lead to the downfall of the Islamist Republic regime.

Inherently, we seek to bring our nation full circle with
the best parts of our cultural heritage, and the values and
freedoms in which Persia was founded upon. These same
principals form the basis of commonality between our two
cultures today. However, those that have usurped and
distorted our traditions must be removed from power and
denied influence in any new political structure that may
rise from the ashes of our despair, as the fires of freedom
light the darkest corners of our nation, and create the
light of hope in the eyes of the Iranian people.

Mr. President, The "sham" reforms brought to us over the
years by questionable individuals who are hoping only to
save part of their backwarded ideology have proven
themselves unworthy of the cultural traditions and precepts
that Cyrus the Great founded Persia upon over 2500 years
ago. Those ancient precepts regarding freedom of worship,
individual right to own property, freedom from slavery,
representative government in a democratic
"federalist" government that respected the states rights to
determine local laws so long as they were consistent with
the inherent rights of the people, respecting territorial
integrity in the process, have proven themselves over time
and among many cultures.

These same sham reformers who have continued to allow the
stoning of women, continued under the laws of the Islamic
Republic regime to regard our women as worth exactly half
that of a man in their courts, continued to deny our women
their god given rights, disenfranchising half the
population in the process in all aspects of their civil
liberties. Nor can they be allowed to influence the future
we seek. Those that have been party to the denial of human
rights can not be tolerated as being any part or party to
our political future. Nor partake (i.e. Nazi party-post WW2
not allowed), in any part of any new secular government
chosen by the people, of the people, and for the people to
initiate a US/UN monitored direct constitutional referendum
mandated and ratified through the process of forming a new
political structure and the rule of law which it must
ascribe to.


Sir, It is the women, suffering under gender apartheid
conditions, who represent a large part of the opposition,
and will make a major contribution through their degree of
knowledge, and political and civil maturity to the
democratic and peaceful revolution we seek to manifest, as
well as to a future democratic Iran. We cannot carry such
baggage or the individuals who continue to deny women their
place in society in this process of regaining our freedom
and their equality in the process.


Mr. President, We in the opposition movement see the
strong two-faced diplomacy the Islamic Republic regime is
engaged in, that has not only caused nations to appease the
evil regime with offers of economic incentive, but that has
caused others to support their blind ambitions.

We see the effects of this diplomacy on some members of
Congress, government and international think-tanks, the UN
and the IAEA. We see the confusion in policy that has been
proposed by former members of various governments, and we
strongly urge you to address their perceptions in this most
grave and dangerous illusion of "engagement" that they have
been following, as soon as possible. For them to continue
to do so would amount to purchasing those chains that hold
us in bondage.

We believe it would be criminally negligent for any nation
to support the continuance and aspirations of the Islamic
Republic regime one day longer.

In the founding of a new political structure in a free,
secular, and democratic Iran, through our people's voice,
having international support for our cause, only then will
the international community rest assured that the threat
the Islamic Republic regime poses to all of us, is gone for
once and for all. The state of the internal parameters
existing today inside Iran, are such that they are ripe for
democratic revolution.


Mr. President, We believe the minor problems resulting
in splits among opposition groups can be resolved by your
eloquent inaugural speech and your continued moral and
logistical support. Now is the time for us to come together
and face the dangers.

Not the least of which is the danger that the opposition
movement itself faces from regime elements located all over
the world. In much the same way Saddam targeted his
opposition, we face those same threats, both physically and
politically at home and abroad by the following methodology
of the Islamic Republic regime:
Distract, Deceive, Discredit, Discourage, and Dismember the
opposition, wherever it may be found. How these methods
manifest itself in action, is varied, effective, and
coordinated by the theocratic regime through it's agents,
and proxy. Including targeted assassinations on our future
leaders.

These methods of threat and intimidation must be addressed
if your words and bond of moral and financial support are
to become manifest by our action in a positive and
effective manner to bring a quicker end to this evil
regime.


Sir, We face a common threat, and I stress that in no
way do we seek any form of military intervention to obtain
the freedom we aspire to achieve.

In our method of civil disobedience, we require the firm
moral support in action by the international community, and
the financial backing to follow through of our own accord,
to help millions of Iranian workers and citizens take their
nation back, through peaceful protest and strike.

The solutions we may find together in dialogue between our
two peoples and within the opposition groups resulting in
the coordination of our efforts and actions in the face of
a common enemy, hinge on a unified moral stance within the
community of nations to halt any and all support for the
Islamic Republic regime, it's terrorist allies, and its
economic and political base.


Mr. President, Never before has a foreign leader taken
such a noble and realistic position in support of the
Iranian people and for people everywhere who have suffered
for so long in despair and isolation.

We offer to you these prayers of suggestion in the hope
they may be considered by your Administration, Congress,
the American people, America's Allies and friends, the UN,
and people of all nations.

These suggestions are based on two tracks. The isolation of
the Islamic Republic regime, and the essential moral and
financial support needed by legitimate non-violent
opposition groups to move on the opportunity that now
exits. Together, in a coordinated way, we will achieve
success. God willing.

1. Implementation of full international economic and
military sanctions on the Islamic Republic regime via UN
security council resolution based on human rights, support
for terrorism, and this to be tabled with or without IAEA
board recommendation on the nuclear threat the theocracy
poses. These two issues alone should be viewed as
circumstance the world cannot turn it's back upon, at risk
of civilization itself. Such measures should include
coordination with oil producing nations to ensure stable
world supply while sanction persists, as well as the
halting of any and all arms transfers to the Islamic
Republic regime.

Note: We believe it is unwise to continue nuclear power
discussions until such time as secular government ratified
by the people in Iran comes to power. And rest assured Mr.
President, any new government, abiding by the rule of law,
can and will work with the IAEA in full cooperation to
implement the safeguards and protocols, to address all
aspects and concerns regarding the peaceful use of atomic
power, and to dismantle any and all existing programs that
may violate them.

2. Full diplomatic sanction and closing of Iranian
embassies world-wide, removal and deportation of regime
representatives, their agents and spies from all nations.
Diplomatic sanction by the UN, and removal of
representation from this international forum till such time
as a legitimate interim government can be established in
Iran. Iran is party to the 1948 UN charter, yet not having
been a signatory the Islamic Republic regime is abysmally
derelict in it's adherence to the provisions contained
within it.

Note: We ask that concerns regarding lack of consular
functions as a result of this action be cooperatively
addressed, so as to continue to allow emergency visas to be
issued. (i.e. family emergencies, etc.) It may be possible
to retain the minimum consular functions, under tight
supervision, but they are well known in their recruiting
of, and issuing visa to potential martyrs and terrorists.
As well, We feel it is unwise to allow the Islamic Republic
regime to maintain a UN staff of aprox. 400 "diplomats",
who consistently violate the 12 mile limit, engage in
activities not associated with diplomatic function, and
pose a threat to US interests and Iranian opposition groups
located in the US.

3. Freezing of any and all financial assets of the
Islamic Republic regime, their current and former
leadership, and corporate interests world-wide, till such
time as a new interim government can be established. As
well as allocation of portions of these assets now to
legitimate non-violent opposition groups inside and outside
Iran, to realize the goals, and to provide the tangible
support needed as civil disobedience becomes manifest in
action. Only in this way can this action be self sustaining
till it succeeds.

4. Repeated statements by world leaders publicly
calling for the leadership of the Islamic Republic regime
to step down peacefully, and to relinquish the government
to the hands and will of the Iranian people.

5. The coordinated post-regime rebuilding of vital
social institutions and infrastructure of democracy should
be implemented now. The training of judges, civil servants,
police, etc. The Iranian exile community can provide the
talent, initially and there are many more inside Iran
supporting the opposition who will answer the call to
service as the situation permits. This will speed up the
post-regime process, and greatly enhance stability in the
interim government.

In addition, while SMCCDI does not speak for other groups
in the opposition, we believe it is vital for our efforts
to become coordinated in the formation of a working group
among leaders of opposition groups, in conjunction with
free nation's representatives to facilitate and coordinate
all of the above measures.
To facilitate this, we would humbly request that you grant
audience to the opposition's young leaders, be they
Monarchist, Republican, Democrat, moderate, left, or right
as may be represented by their group's opinions, allowing
them to express their thanks and support for the greater
Middle East project, in a roundtable "Forum for the Future"
of Iran.


Mr. President, The proposed sanctions to be implemented
will represent a hardship for our people residing in Iran,
and we will most certainly face violent opposition toward
our civil disobedience actions. But the hope that will
sustain the millions of workers and government employees
that will rise and shut down the functioning of the Islamic
Republic regime while the sanctions persist, will cause
their will to succeed to hold firm. It is our hope that the
resolve and support of the international community will
stand firm as well.

We believe these measures are warranted under current
international law, and various resolutions in the UN
regarding human rights, and state sponsors of terrorism.


Mr. President, God willing with your help and through
our own efforts, along with those supporting our efforts
via moral and logistical support, we will light a fire as
well, and sustain that fire in the minds of all nations.

Your words have warmed the hearts of the Iranian people,
just as they burn those who fight our progress. And one
day, this untamed fire of freedom will reach the darkest
corners of our nation. That day is fast upon us, and we ask
that all free nations move as suggested without delay,
"seized of the matter", in order to aid us in this noble
endeavor.


Sincerely Yours,


On behalf of SMCCI,

Aryo B . Pirouznia (Movement's Coordinator)




SMCCDI
5015 Addison Circle #244 Addison Texas 75001 (USA)
www.daneshjoo.org ; www.iranstudents.org
Tel: +1 (972) 504-6864 ; Fax: +1 (972) 491-9866
E-Mail: smccdi@daneshjoo.org
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American Visitor



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:45 am    Post subject: How America can Help Reply with quote

The statement by the Iranians is very good. Here is my understanding of what they need from us.

1. Try to avoid war with Iran.
From reading posts here I'm convinced there is a mixed feeling about that, but war is not what they would prefer. Only time will tell if the people unaided can overthrow the despots who have taken over their land.

2. There seems to be complete agreement that we should try to isolate the Islamic regime.
Those people who are trying for "constructive engagement" like we have done in China don't seem popular among the Iranians. Whether "constructive engagement" will help the Chinese is still open to question. So far human rights in China seem to have suffered a setback as the regime becomes more wealthy and powerful and more corrupt aided by our moral blindness. I understand Microsoft is helping the Chinese dictators develop software to keep their people from communicating freely with other people around the world.

3. Provide moral leadership.
I used to wonder why the Iranians disliked England so much but now I understand better. Partly it is because of British history as colonizers. Another important reason is because they have thrown away their own values and culture and to a large extent adopted the morality of the Mullahs. Human trash from all over the Islamic world is welcome in England to teach hatred and totalitarian ideology in British Mosques at the British taxpayers expense. We Americans were fooled into thinking the British were our allies in the war on violent Islamic fundamentalism but they weren't. Now they are paying the price in terrorist attacks on their own soil and are beginning to wake up just a little.
In my opinion, our American "cultural elite" are not much better. They are so dedicated to their version of multiculturalism and wallowing in guilt about past wrong we have done, that they aren't able to acknowledge the intellectual and religious foundations of the war we have been forced to fight or the source of our greatness. The only way we can win is by upholding our own culture and stand by our own morality which promotes freedom and religious secularism. The Iranians will have to choose for themselves how to organize their country, but moral ambiguity on our part is not helpful. As with any people, we have at times done wrong, but we have also done many things right and we should be proud of what we have managed to accomplish. We should be honest with our history and share freely why our country has the freedoms we have today and how we got to this point.
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Visitor,


I don't think time is on anyone's side, including the mullahs.

I have read the UN reform Act, Passed by the House (I think by the Senate as well now), almost all the Iranian solutions relevent to the UN is contained within that as far as the implications for the IRI are concerned.
Other aspects (financial support) is contained within the Iran Freedom and Support Act (similar status in Congress I believe, as above)

In a real sense, the IRI is a perfect test subject for UN reform, as is the
Congressional legislation which Bolton will be most concerned with in his
duties as the US representitive to the UN.

I have been considering issues surrounding nuclear weapons all my adult
life. On the flyleaf of my grandmother's book about Los Alamos that I gave
to Bill Clinton the day he was first elected President I wrote, "This is a
slice of times past, to give perspective on the present, so that in the
future we can eliminate the threat of nuclear war. The greatest threat we
face today is that terrorists will obtain nuclear weapons." Not to be
partisan, this is just fact.

The IRI is fast pushing the free world to another alternative that could be
far worse, if the IRI does produce a nuclear weapon before the people decide
their own fate, and remove the threat both to them and the international
community.

It took America just 3.5 years, from 1942-45 to build an industry from
scratch, based on designs from scratch, building a city from scratch to
build a bomb from scratch , with only theories to go on, in the middle of
the largest and most costly war in history. Yet we did this and ended that
war that had cost 50 million lives up to that point with the weapon that no
one knew would even work at the time it was being produced. Just 3.5 years,
from theory to reality.

Now Iran has had at least 18 years, lots of help from other nations, black
market smugglers, and their scientists have had proven designs to work with.
It's not because their scientists aren't as smart as America's, or that they
lack the raw materials, the technological capability or the will to build
it, that prevented them from doing so.

Fact is, the only reason I can think of is that containment by western
nations has been up to this point fairly successful even with the smuggling,
and outside help they've had. But it has it's limits, and the limit has been
reached. Diplomatic efforts have only been partially successful, and are not
likely to halt the blind ambitions of the Islamic Republic.
Now I hear a fair amount of talk that the US is just using this as an
excuse to promote "regime change". But the reality is if the regime isn't
changed soon, the mullahs who are willing to martyr 10 million recruits (as
noted in IRI statements), and is on record of having an agenda of
obliterating Israel off the map, would certainly be willing to use such a
weapon on their own people to make it look for all intents and purposes as
if the Israeli's or the US had just attacked them, thereby creating the
needed justification for holy war. "Regime change" in Iran is really not up
to us per se, and it seems a rather moot point as the Iranian people have
spoken....

Everyone who worked on the first bomb, being as uncivilized a weapon as it is, believed it would cause mankind to forever choose peace instead of war after it ended WW2. Unfortunately, that direction was not taken, at the expense of the environment, and to the continued threat to all life on this planet. And this will remain the case until they are eliminated.


I'll pit this "Citizen's Assesment" against any NIE from the US intel community that thinks otherwise (and you can see a front page Washington Post article today that I am referencing this statement to an article regarding a recent NIE) "National Intelligence Estimate".

You know, we as citizens may sometimes run into a mindset that regards our knowledge of the world as "incomplete" because THEY are the so called experts, and they(or some of them) love to remind you of that.
Fact is, the proof is in plain sight that THEY don't realize just how arrogent an assumption that is, and how deadly it may ultimately prove to be if we citizens who(and I speak for all those internationally who've provided solid info and ideas)have taken it opon ourselves to contribute positively to fight the war on terrorism; are shoved aside and ignored because of the professional's "soft- bigotry, of low expectations."

You must assess for yourself if my gut-instinct and concern is valid or not.

As Churchill put it, given the choice between war and dishonor, Chamberlain chose dishonor and got war.

I think you understand my inference.


In general you are on target with concurrent thought in the opposition community.
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blank



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 1672

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: How America can Help Reply with quote

[quote="American Visitor"]The statement by the Iranians is very good. Here is my understanding of what they need from us.
2. There seems to be complete agreement that we should try to isolate the Islamic regime.
Those people who are trying for "constructive engagement" like we have done in China don't seem popular among the Iranians. Whether "constructive engagement" will help the Chinese is still open to question. So far human rights in China seem to have suffered a setback as the regime becomes more wealthy and powerful and more corrupt aided by our moral blindness. I understand Microsoft is helping the Chinese dictators develop software to keep their people from communicating freely with other people around the world.


My understanding is China asked Microsoft to eliminate the words 'freedom' & 'democracy' from their computer system. MS was happy to oblige. I guess they believe if they don't accomodate China she will get it from France, Germany or another country.
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear blank,

Awhile back, I was checking out (just for the heck of it) how many folks were on this forum at the time...and there was a "newest registered user" listed...clicked on it and low and behold the fellow's from China..well, seems to me statisticly he's probably using microsoft software on his box to get here, and I'm absolutely certain the fellow knows what Freedom and Democracy means at this point. (chuckle).

Wouldn't take much looking around here to figure that one out.

Whether the gov of China wants to keep it's citizens in the dark, having the means in the hands of the people through the internet to discover other people and cultures, ideas, politics, all that goes into this crazy messed up, wonderful world we live in, was probably microsoft's intent, along with making a buck in the process.

If they compromised with the Chinese government, it was because they figured if the people had the means and a computer, they could figure things out for themselves.

Just as folks in Iran have.

(chuckle) You just can't keep a good blogger down...
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oppenheimer said:

"...there was a "newest registered user" listed...clicked on it and low and behold the fellow's from China..well, seems to me statisticly he's probably using microsoft software on his box to get here,"

If you are talking about me, you are only partly correct. Since there are enemies of freedom who read this site, I will not go much further. As with most Americans I have ties to several different parts of the world.

I salute your family for working to prevent nuclear proliferation around the world. That is a worthy goal and should prevent many deaths from mad men who will use them for evil purposes. Unfortunately the genie is already out of the bottle and will not be contained in the near term.

I want to enlarge on my third point about moral leadership. The leaders of the free world have lost their moral compass and can not win the "war on terror" until they can actually name the enemy. By constantly talking about Al Queda and Bin Laddin they have managed to obscure the true nature of the conflict. The real enemy are religious fanatics who use religion as a weapon of mass destruction.

When I think about his time in office, for Bill Clinton the motto seems to have been, expediency. What ever feels good, do it. What ever sounds good say it. Truth and goodness are completely secondary. So far as I can tell, Bill Clinton was one of the most amoral presidents ever.

George Bush has done much better by emphasizing democracy, but he is also losing the confidence of the American people because he is unable to define what we are up against and who they are who hate us.
1. By constantly talking about Bin Laddin and Al Queda as if they were the problem, Mr. Bush has made a hero for the forces of evil who hate our freedoms and has convinced many Americans he doesn't know how to fight his "war on terror." He has also managed to absolve folks like the royal family of Saudi Arabia and to some extent even the Mullahs of Iran from moral culpability so long as they make a public show of fighting Al Queda. The fact that these people teach religiously based hatred and practice tyranny can be overlooked so long as they denounce Al Queda and pretend to be searching for Bin Laddin.
2. Mr. Bush has failed to confront the religious ideology which motivates these evil deeds. Other than to declare that "Islam is a religion of peace," I see no evidence that Mr. Bush or his advisors have actually studied Islam and have no understanding why some of the most ardent practitioners of the "religion of peace" hate us so much. It is suicidal for the American government to allow Saudi Arabia to spend millions of dollars in our country at our universities setting up "Islamic study departments" and staffing them with Wahabbi trained professors to promote their fanatical version of religion. Unfortunately, until we actually have nuclear explosions in our own cities George Bush and the intellectual elite in our country will continue to slumber peacefully.

One of the most eloquent voices I have read is that of a woman of color who was raised Muslim. She is a legislator in Holland who has actually lived in a prison to save her life after the Van Gough murder. In this instance, she has more moral clarity that the leaders of the US have shown for many years.
http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/categorie/46044
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