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Oldman



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 158
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: 6tm.com Reply with quote

Ba dorood:

Many of you have had the chance to learn about 6tm.com where Iranians are invited to sign a call for referendum for a NEW constitution.

This call has brought so many people of different political views together that one could say, AJABAAA!!!

I was amongst the people who did not see this call as a complete one however, since then I have been learning more about this call including POSHT PARDEH issues.

I wanted to talk to you all about this and in fact let you know that this idea will be heavily campaigned for as this is what majority see the possibility to get rid of Mullahs with minimal bloodshed.

This our best chance to get rid of Mullhs with our own hands rather take the risk of people uniting around the mullahs in case of foreign attacks.

If you do not agree with this call, we need to criticize it to get the best fit out otherwise, we are looking at best a bloody fight with the 5% support of current regime or at worst get someone like USA to occupy Iran!!!!

Would you please share your disagreement with this call?

Thank you in advance.
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am in full agreement with this motion. Finally something we can all do to help the cause. Btw welcome to activist chat oldman, i assume you are the one and only oldman from iran united?
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Oldman



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ba dorood:

Delighted Reza Jaan that you are in support.

Yes, I am the one and only Oldman. Wink
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Oldman



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ba dorood:

As you all know about the call for referendum in Iran, many major cities around the world have seen Iranians to join in for creating a committee to promote this idea.

The purpose of these committees is not JUST to promote the call but also collect comments for improving this call.

I ask you all to seek out these committees in your area and try to help by criticizing it or by pitching in a helping hand.

Iran needs Iranians to participate in democratic movements rather than look for a FREEDOM FIGHTER to bring them liberty.

Iran does not need a wave of RAHAAIE-BAKHSH but a group of AAZAADI-BAKHSH.

Regime change in Iran is a must but ONLY by Iranians’ hand.

USA and West are in it for their own benefits and even if their interests and ours is the same, it does not mean that Iranians will end up with a democratic system, does it?!!
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stefania



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am against it.
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stefania



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Referendum for Iran?

By Mohammad Parvin
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 22, 2005
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17094

The Islamic Regime of Iran knows well that it is not wanted by the majority of the Iranian people. It is true that it has survived for twenty six years by repression and help of the interest-driven Iranians and western power. But, in spite of all these obstacles, the freedom-loving Iranians have resisted and have not allowed this brutal regime to stabilize. The Iranian people are still resisting, and that is why we are witnessing daily imprisonments, tortures and executions by the Islamic Regime. This regime knows better than anybody else that is hated by the people and will never yield to a referendum request expressed by some of the so-called “reformists.”

Of course, referendum can be used as a challenge to the Islamic Regime of Iran (IRI) and all those who consider any legitimacy for it. When we claim that IRI has no legitimacy and does not represent the majority of Iranians, we can qualify our claim by challenging those who think otherwise to an internationally monitored referendum.

To avoid any misunderstanding, we also need to emphasize that IRI will never dare to accept such challenge. At this stage, referendum is just a tactic and nothing more. The type of referendum that is introduced by Sazgara, et al, is not of this nature. Sazgara, the main architects of the referendum, was a close ally of Khomeini and an advocate of the 1979 Islamic Revolution. He was one of the founders of the Islamic regime's Elite guard , and a former candidate of the Islamic presidency. In recent years he has turned to a critic of the hardliners and was arrested in June 2003, during a wave of student unrest in Tehran and was detained for 114 days.

At first, he and others proposed the “referendum” as a means of changing the Iranian constitution. It was argued that this referendum would be an alternative to violent actions. When the obvious question was raised as to how this bloody regime would yield to the will of the people expressed by internet clicking, the architects of this referendum and other supporters resorted to contradicting arguments and finally ended up saying that we just want to have a “dialog about referendum.”



Proposing a referendum, as a practical alternative to violent action and reducing it to dialog, has the dangerous potential of diverting the attentions from the real alternative, which is civil disobedience. In fact, such diversion could be the only outcome of this referendum.



Considering the above argument, it should not be surprising that the main architects of this deadly project are people like Sazgara, Maleki, and those from the Unity Consolidation Office (the real name is Office for Consolidation among students and shia’ clerics). At best, and even if we assume that they have been “reformed”, what they are seeking is a watered-down Islamic regime. They have articulated their wish for transformation of present theocracy to a “good” one in many writings and interviews as I have referenced in my recent Persian articles.



And, as to the supporters of referendum outside Iran, all those who supported Khatami have found another excellent avenue to pursue their non-action policy, and leave it all to the will of the regime itself. You can hardly find any of the Khatami’s supporters not to be among the supporters of referendum. It brings me sorrow to say that, in my opinion, the rest of the referendum supporters are some frustrated politicians, writers, poets, and “intellectuals” who have no idea how to deal with the Islamic Regime.



Fortunately, the supporters of referendum have been left isolated and people inside Iran have not shown much interest at all. Contrary to what I was afraid of at the beginning, they have learned a lesson from the 2nd Khordad event, and they won’t be manipulated and deceived by another one. The number of signatures announced has no credibility because the Internet method adopted for voting is not verifiable. One can create thousands of Yahoo accounts and vote as many times. For example, signature numbers 24188 (Ali Kaazeb) and 24189 (Mohammad Kaazeb) on the 60000000.com site are both me! You may send e-mails to alikaazeb@yahoo.com and mkaazeb@yahoo.com, and I will respond!


Contrary to what some people have suggested, I don’t believe that President George Bush should endorse this referendum to demonstrate his sincerity about real change in Iran. To put his words into action, all he needs to do are a few simple things:



· Acknowledge the fact that the freedom-loving Iranians want a secular democratic regime and are against the entirety of the Islamic Regime, its constitution, and any form or shape of the interference of religion in state.



· Impose a smart sanction against the Islamic Regime of Iran. This sanction should be a real one and not of the type that would exclude 200 American companies such as Halliburton and General Electric. A sanction that does not have any loopholes and does not allow Halliburton or GE to stay in Iran for another five years to finish their current obligations (obligations to whom?).



· Reduce the diplomatic relations with the Islamic Regime to the lowest possible level.



· Apply the U.S. Anti-Terrorism Act indiscriminately and do not allow the IRI lobby groups such as AIC and individuals like Senator Biden to legitimize a terrorist regime.



If the U.S. wants to show support for the Iranians, it should respect the above few wishes. It is achievable and comes at no cost to the American people. The rest will be done by the Iranians. If the Iranian people see that they have to confront only the Islamic regime and not the entire world, they will be more encouraged to organize and learn how to use the weapons of nonviolence actions and civil disobedience more effectively against their enemy. There are people like those in MEHR group, who have spent several years to learn the philosophy and techniques of the nonviolence actions and love to share it with all the Iranians who struggle for a secular democracy in Iran. We had actually started our workshops on civil disobedience, but “Dialog of referendum” undermined that activity. We will start again.



As Gene Sharp, the pre-eminent authority on strategic nonviolent struggle articulated in an interview that I had with him last week, referendum, at best, falls within the category of negotiation. And negotiation can never persuade this monstrous regime to abdicate its power. So let us start from where we all know the referendum will stop and stage a real fight. It is a hard one but Iranians can do it.

Mohammad Parvin is an adjunct professor at the California State University and director of the Mission for Establishment of Human Rights in Iran (MEHR) - http://mehr.org
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Oldman



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ba dorood:
Stefania,

Thanks for the article as I have read many like it and like to have the opportunity to respond to some of the points from this article.

1- I do not agree that since the likes of SAAZEGAARAA are involved then this call is not trust worthy or not good enough. We must stay with issue and leave the emotions out when getting ready to lay down the first democratic brick. It is not important as who is speaking but WHAT they are speaking about is WHAT is important.


2- To claim that this call for referendum will divert the attention from the real alternative of civil disobedience as it is in this article (see quote below)
Quote:
Proposing a referendum, as a practical alternative to violent action and reducing it to dialog, has the dangerous potential of diverting the attentions from the real alternative, which is civil disobedience. In fact, such diversion could be the only outcome of this referendum.
is incorrect.

3- This call is yet another cause for unification and we all know that civil disobedience does not work in absence of a united front. So, to say that this referendum has no outcome but diversion from the real alternative is not correct. I explained above that this call is one venue to bring a unified front with a good size mass.

4- To dismiss this call since there are people who THOUGHT that Mullah Khatami is DA MAN, is not right either and again, one has to stay with issue not the emotion and human part of this call.

5- Again, to dismiss the validity of this call since the Internet signature collection is not trustworthy is not a good argument for being against this call.

6- To expect USA help with replacing the regime with a nationalistic one is just a dream and this article is asking USA not to endorse this call but help to replace the regime but won’t say what type of regime, is it going to be yet another ISLAMIC country like Afghanistan?!!! :rolleyes:

I am afraid, the article you have provided to explain as why you do not agree with this call has not been that helpful as I have explained it in detail (above).
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stefania



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, the Iranians have always demanded a Referendum AFTER Regime Change. It's the first time I hear that there's a Petition calling for reforming the IRI Consitution.

Question : Do you think that the Mullahs will allow this Referendum and if so, will they refrain from manipulating the result ?

Honestly, believe that they will do so means trusting the Mullahs.

And this Petition explicitily trust the Mullahs' "goodwill".

That's why millions haven't signed it, as well explained by Mohammad Parvin.
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Oldman



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ba dorood Stefania:

Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
As far as I know, the Iranians have always demanded a Referendum AFTER Regime Change. It's the first time I hear that there's a Petition calling for reforming the IRI Consitution.


I am afraid, that is not completely right.

Article 59 of Islamic Rip-off’s constipation (sorry that I can not use the proper word!!) calls for referendum.

The background on this article is when Baazargaan asked to include democratic republic on the ballot of 1979 referendum, Mullah KhomAnni disagreed and settled for an article of law to be added as article 59 came about.

To EPRESS the word referendum, the credit goes to the so-called reformist MP of last Majlis from Isfahan, Mazrooie, who stated the exercise of this law in Majlis. Prior to this, NO BODY DARED TO EVEN SAY THE WORD REFERENDUM.

Having said that, I like to point out that the call for referendum is not just for regime change but also to bring ALL Iranians together against Islamic Rip-off, a form of unification, if you would?!

Now, I will try to answer your question:

Quote:
Question : Do you think that the Mullahs will allow this Referendum and if so, will they refrain from manipulating the result ?


NO, and I do not think anyone was expecting Islamic Rip-off to sign its death certificate either but international pressure may lead in to a better enforcement of PRESSURE on Islamic Rip-off which in turn weakens Mullahs hence Iranian with a UNITED call for referendum under UN watch can come about.

Manipulation of the votes is a possibility however, that should not be the reason NOT ASKING FOR ONE, is it?! Aside from that, UN watch is what this call is asking for so it is not Islamic Rip-off conducting the referendum.

Quote:
Honestly, believe that they will do so means trusting the Mullahs.

And this Petition explicitily trust the Mullahs' "goodwill".

That's why millions haven't signed it, as well explained by Mohammad Parvin.


I am sorry that I do not agree that this “call” is asking to trust Mullahs. I am one of the people who BELIEVE that A MULLAH IS A MULLAH IS A MULLAH hence, I would not have supported it had I agreed with Mr. Parvin.

Millions have not signed it? How many of Iranians both inside and outside do have access to Internet and how many of those who have access do have the AAGAAHI about this call? Please using numbers from thin air is wrong and misleading.

In days to come, you may have the opportunity to see committee members on TVs talking about this “call” therefore, I ask you to watch and should you have a question or better yet, have a criticism, THEN please do make contact to express your point.
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stefania



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't support this Petition.

I have always heard that Iranians want a Regime Change and a Referendum , not a mere reform of the IRI Constitution
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Oldman



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ba dorood:

Stefania, fine but you are wrong to insinuate that this call is to "reform".

It is clearly asking for a NEW constitution which NEWELY ELECTED members of Mjlis Mosesaan would devise.

Please let me know as where or how you came up with the idea that this call is for reforming Islamic Rip-off so I can perhaps make some suggestion to correct it.
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Oldman



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ba dorood:

I hope that you all now have realized that the effort for referendum is out with a clear message.

The message is: REFERENDUM AFTER REMOVAL OF THE REGIME". Smile
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cyrus
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldman wrote:
Ba dorood:

I hope that you all now have realized that the effort for referendum is out with a clear message.

The message is: REFERENDUM AFTER REMOVAL OF THE REGIME". Smile


They are clear with sepration of religion and state, but they are not very clear on "REFERENDUM AFTER REMOVAL OF THE REGIME".

Their final statement is not clear on this subject, please visit the URL:

http://www.60000000.info/Ref/Qat_name_K_JRI.html

as long as they don't put "REFERENDUM AFTER REMOVAL OF THE REGIME" statement in their final declaration can not be acceptable.
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Oldman



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ba dorood:

I ask you to visit the site again and see if the congress held in past November clarified your concerns or not?
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blank



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any referandum, that has the slightest input from people that were part of the past regime such as Sazgara, Yazdi, BaniSadr, and their lobbyists AIC/NIAC & the rest of the arab-parast, Hezb/jebhe/fadayoon etc. should never be trusted or accepted. The only acceptable referandum would be valid when the ragheads are removed, and is organized & supported by true representative of people like NISP (National Iranian Secular Party) or SMCCDI.
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