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What is an Agnostic? By Khayyam and Bertrand Russell
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyrus Said:

Quote:
1) Secularism and Secular Democracy are not ideology or religion.
2) Secularism and Secular Democracy is the only concept that guarantees religious freedom.
3) Great majority of American Christians are Secular and prefer religion as a private choice.
4) Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islamism, Judaism, etc., or extreme ideologies such as Fascism or Communism are not the same ….
5) Modern secularism is not a grab for power by atheists and agnostics. Majority of secularists in USA believe in different religions …..
6) The United States Constitution was an expression of enlightened men and women …. Who were very familiar with Christian faith .... Please watch the following video by Cyrus Kar regarding USA Constitution


Cyrus,

There are some good points here.

It appears that we need to clarify our definition of secularism. If you are talking about the constitutional guarantee of religious freedom, that is a good thing. If you are talking about active suppression of religion from the public arena, then you are talking about something which any thoughtful person should reject.

Here is the online definition of secularism:
Quote:
1. Religious skepticism or indifference.
2. The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

[url]http://www.answers.com/secularism [/url]

The first definition describes individual beliefs, primarily agnostics and atheists. This has no bearing on our discussion.

The second definition is exactly opposite from the goal of the founding fathers, religious freedom. It is an oxymoron to talk about excluding religion and simultaneously talk about religious freedom. Religious freedom includes the freedom to express your religious viewpoint in the public arena.

As I pointed out, in a secularist society atheists and agnostics are given freedom to actively indoctrinate the young people with antireligious ideas and to attack the culture from within. On the other hand, the youth are not allowed to learn about their own Judeo-Christian culture. Over time, society deteriorates as it is in Europe, where their Judeo-Christian culture is destroyed. At that point, Islam comes in to fill the void.

My scenario is based on events in the West, but perhaps the situation in Iran is different. I recognize that your primary objective is to reform Iran. Perhaps you could to turn the tables in Iran, and destroy Islamism through secularism. If all the professors in Iran would teach atheism and agnosticism and refuse to teach Islam, Iran would rapidly move away from the radicalism of the Mullahs. Unfortunately it won't happen. The religious leaders in Iran don't believe in freedom of religion, so their solution to the secularist problem will be easy. All they have to do is to hang anyone who speaks against Islam, and the secularist movement is dead.

If the secularists could seize power first, perhaps their plan could work for awhile. However, it would be unstable since most people will quickly tire of blank lives with no higher purpose that to eat and copulate. Soon a messianic speaker will come along and move them into a pagan dictatorship in which the leader is revered as semi-divine. There are a great number of societies exactly like that today.

On the other hand, secularism is very successful in destroying an already free society. Because free societies allow secularists the same freedom to express their secularist ideas that everyone else has, the secularists can wait until they have the opportunity to permanently eject the previous culture, shut down their freedom of speech in the public arena, and control power for themselves. Once religious freedom is gone, the society will quickly slide downward into moral chaos. Our Islamist friends are only too happy to step in at that point and to reorganize the society. This seems to be the pattern happening all across Europe. Most secularists seem to have no problem allowing Islam in the public arena, it is Christians they want to supress. This problem is especially severe in Canada where they have kangaroo human rights courts running interference for the Islamists. http://ezralevant.com/

As I pointed out, a society which can not differentiate between groups who are committed to religious freedom and those who reject religious freedom is doomed. In the United States, the president can not even name his enemy because it might appear that he is favoring some religious people over others. Thus we have the ambiguous "war on terror." A war in which the government can not define their enemies is a sure loser. The government which wages a "war on terror" is similar to a boxer who steps into the arena blindfolded.

Your argument that many religious people support secularism is true. That does not make the idea any better. A society without a common set of values and moral assumptions can not survive. By definition, secularism is a moral blank since any set of values would tend to favor one group's values over those held by others. Once the original consensus breaks down, the society quickly disintegrates. Because of secularism, the people can not turn to their traditional religion for guidance, they have no alternative but to turn instead to a charismatic dictator who imposes his own rules on them. The dictator reestablishes the common consensus.

As the French philosophes learned during the French Revolution, many ideas which seem good at the theoretical level turn out tragically when applied in real life. I believe in real life secularism as an ideology is destined to destroy many people's lives. Incidentally, according to my understanding of the term ideology, secularism is indeed an ideology.
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American Visitor



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: The Triumph of Secularism Reply with quote

Cyrus,

I believe our most recent election is the triumph of secularism over the traditional American Judeo-Christian culture. We will soon see how things work out. I hope you are correct and I am wrong, and that secularism is a positive thing, but so far the signs bode ill. Perhaps I'm not being fair to secularists, by equating them with the Democrat party. I recognize that there may be some differences. The reason I'm making that connection is because many of their policies are exactly what we have seen elsewhere when secularists gain power. I imagine you will disagree with this proxy, but if so perhaps you can offer a better one to test secularism.

Freedom

1. Religious Freedom
The secularists have already removed a great deal of our religious freedom. Suppressing the free expression in the public arena is the exact opposite of the quest for religious freedom which motivated our ancestors. The ten commandments have been banned from the public square. Although our founders were committed Christians, society is not allowed to honor or respect in any way their religion. Without religious freedom, no freedom is sacred.

2. Freedom of Speech
There is already evidence that the democrats are prepared to remove more freedoms from the American people. The Democrats have made passage of the fairness doctrine as one of their primary objectives. The only purpose for the fairness doctrine is to supress free speech on the radio and some of the cable news stations who don't support their agenda.

3. The Secret Ballot
Recently an old liberal warhorse, George McGovern, came on TV and protested the plan to eliminate the secret ballot in union elections. The reason the Democrats want to take away the secret ballot is because they know that many people will not voluntarily join a union if they can vote uncoerced. By removing the secret ballot, the union bosses who contribute heavily to the Democrats can coerce their membership. The workers then become Democratic serfs.

3. Hate Speech Laws
Hate speech laws are just another excuse to remove people's freedom of speech. There have always been laws against direct incitement to violence. Hate speech laws are an entirely new limitation on free speech. They outlaw anyone who expresses an opinion which the ruling secularists don't like. Europe and Canada have already enacted hate speech laws which define traditional Christians as criminals. Anyone who criticizes Islam is labeled Islamophobic and will be silenced by force. I expect these to be the law of the land in the United States very soon. Because many secularists generally despise Christians, we will probably soon see Christian pastors prosecuted for Islamophobia or Homophobia. Don't expect to see Islamic hate preachers similarly prosecuted. It won't happen.

4. Respect for Life
Although good people can disagree on early abortion especially in the case of rape, incest, or when the baby will be fatally defective, the secularists push abortion much further. Partial abortion is coming back. The partial birth abortion means that a baby is partially born and then the skull is pierced and the brains sucked out. It is nothing but a brutal form of infanticide. At the other extreme are the elderly or the terminally ill who need the "right to die with dignity." That sounds great, everyone wants that right? This soon morphs into the obligation to die because you are costing your owner, the state too much money. Once your physician becomes your executioner, once killing patients becomes routine, he can easily decide to execute you before you decide it is your time. Physicians become serial murders without any fear of punishment. Unfortunately, physician murders are already occurring in countries with laws allowing physicians to euthanize their patients.

Because secularists have rejected the traditional Judeo-Christian cultural mores which have provided moral guidance for the country, there are no commonly shared moral standards left. What is left is a free for all in which members of different special interest groups clamor for their own rights. Whoever wins the most press gets to set the moral standards. Because human fetuses, the dying, the severely handicapped and the senile elderly don't have the where with all to make so much noise, they have no rights. Because modern Christians don't kill people just because they disagree with them, they must take back stage to the Islamists who make their "rights" known very forcefully. It is now "moral" to slander Christians, but a hate crime to criticize Islam.

Cyrus, at this point, I am not trying to argue with you, or to rant against secularists because of an ideological difference. I very much wish you were correct, that secularism would work. Alas, I believe it will end up destroying the very thing secularists claim they are trying to save.

I believe Western thinkers have approached Christianity backwards. They ask the Christian to prove God exists. The classic a priori answer that God is the first cause is a very good argument, but modern thinkers prefer a posteriori answers. Because a posteriori arguments never provide definite answers about anything, the theist can never provide an absolute proof. But I believe the skeptics are asking the wrong question. The appropriate question is "can man live without God?" I believe the answer is no. Perhaps Buddhism might be an answer for a time at least, but the driving force for human freedom and scientific progress has been theism. Human civilization has evolved with religion as a central part of culture. I'm not sure we can survive without God. The remaining question is which God would we rather have in charge, the Christian God or Allah. Perhaps for the Iranians the Zoroastrian religion will work and for the Indians Hinduism will be their salvation. For Western Civilization, our traditional religion is Christianity. Remove the Christian God, and Western Civilization collapses. I believe anyone in any country who chooses secularism is ultimately choosing Allah.

I think the correct answer is freedom of religion including the right for Christians to openly practice their religion in the public square. With religious freedoms guaranteed, the other freedoms are simultaneously guaranteed. I suspect that Christianity and Zoroastrianism will both be popular as part of your Iranian heritage. India could honor Buddhism and Hinduism. Until Islam is willing to change theologically so that they will respect other people's religious freedom, Islam should be treated as a political ideology, not as a bonafide religion.
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cyrus
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Visitor wrote:
Cyrus Said:

Quote:
1) Secularism and Secular Democracy are not ideology or religion.
2) Secularism and Secular Democracy is the only concept that guarantees religious freedom.
3) Great majority of American Christians are Secular and prefer religion as a private choice.
4) Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islamism, Judaism, etc., or extreme ideologies such as Fascism or Communism are not the same ….
5) Modern secularism is not a grab for power by atheists and agnostics. Majority of secularists in USA believe in different religions …..
6) The United States Constitution was an expression of enlightened men and women …. Who were very familiar with Christian faith .... Please watch the following video by Cyrus Kar regarding USA Constitution


Cyrus,

There are some good points here.

It appears that we need to clarify our definition of secularism. If you are talking about the constitutional guarantee of religious freedom, that is a good thing. If you are talking about active suppression of religion from the public arena, then you are talking about something which any thoughtful person should reject.

Here is the online definition of secularism:
Quote:
1. Religious skepticism or indifference.
2. The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

[url]http://www.answers.com/secularism [/url]

The first definition describes individual beliefs, primarily agnostics and atheists. This has no bearing on our discussion.

The second definition is exactly opposite from the goal of the founding fathers, religious freedom. It is an oxymoron to talk about excluding religion and simultaneously talk about religious freedom. Religious freedom includes the freedom to express your religious viewpoint in the public arena.

As I pointed out, in a secularist society atheists and agnostics are given freedom to actively indoctrinate the young people with antireligious ideas and to attack the culture from within. On the other hand, the youth are not allowed to learn about their own Judeo-Christian culture. Over time, society deteriorates as it is in Europe, where their Judeo-Christian culture is destroyed. At that point, Islam comes in to fill the void.

My scenario is based on events in the West, but perhaps the situation in Iran is different. I recognize that your primary objective is to reform Iran. Perhaps you could to turn the tables in Iran, and destroy Islamism through secularism. If all the professors in Iran would teach atheism and agnosticism and refuse to teach Islam, Iran would rapidly move away from the radicalism of the Mullahs. Unfortunately it won't happen. The religious leaders in Iran don't believe in freedom of religion, so their solution to the secularist problem will be easy. All they have to do is to hang anyone who speaks against Islam, and the secularist movement is dead.

If the secularists could seize power first, perhaps their plan could work for awhile. However, it would be unstable since most people will quickly tire of blank lives with no higher purpose that to eat and copulate. Soon a messianic speaker will come along and move them into a pagan dictatorship in which the leader is revered as semi-divine. There are a great number of societies exactly like that today.

On the other hand, secularism is very successful in destroying an already free society. Because free societies allow secularists the same freedom to express their secularist ideas that everyone else has, the secularists can wait until they have the opportunity to permanently eject the previous culture, shut down their freedom of speech in the public arena, and control power for themselves. Once religious freedom is gone, the society will quickly slide downward into moral chaos. Our Islamist friends are only too happy to step in at that point and to reorganize the society. This seems to be the pattern happening all across Europe. Most secularists seem to have no problem allowing Islam in the public arena, it is Christians they want to supress. This problem is especially severe in Canada where they have kangaroo human rights courts running interference for the Islamists. http://ezralevant.com/

As I pointed out, a society which can not differentiate between groups who are committed to religious freedom and those who reject religious freedom is doomed. In the United States, the president can not even name his enemy because it might appear that he is favoring some religious people over others. Thus we have the ambiguous "war on terror." A war in which the government can not define their enemies is a sure loser. The government which wages a "war on terror" is similar to a boxer who steps into the arena blindfolded.

Your argument that many religious people support secularism is true. That does not make the idea any better. A society without a common set of values and moral assumptions can not survive. By definition, secularism is a moral blank since any set of values would tend to favor one group's values over those held by others. Once the original consensus breaks down, the society quickly disintegrates. Because of secularism, the people can not turn to their traditional religion for guidance, they have no alternative but to turn instead to a charismatic dictator who imposes his own rules on them. The dictator reestablishes the common consensus.

As the French philosophes learned during the French Revolution, many ideas which seem good at the theoretical level turn out tragically when applied in real life. I believe in real life secularism as an ideology is destined to destroy many people's lives. Incidentally, according to my understanding of the term ideology, secularism is indeed an ideology.


Secularism is not Ideology because it does not have rigid framework,

Secularism is Equal to Common Sense.

Cyrus The Great is Father of Secularism because he was first leader who practiced it in the real world as Persian Empire was Secular State .

Religion must be treated as a private matter ….

If the religion is not private matter then rejecting or criticizing religion will become a fare game…..
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:00 am    Post subject: Re: The Triumph of Secularism Reply with quote

American Visitor wrote:
Cyrus,

I believe our most recent election is the triumph of secularism over the traditional American Judeo-Christian culture.

Not true, great majority of African Americans are Christian or Muslim ...
The recent election is not triumph of secularism ....
Cyrus wrote:

20 Reasons why I did not vote in 2008 election?

1) Neither presidential candidates have clear foreign policy regarding Mullahs Invaders and occupiers of Iran , helping Iranian people for regime change and cleaning Islamist mess which started from Carter era and continue ....
2) Neither presidential candidates have clear policy regarding Islamists and Sharia Law....
3) Neither presidential candidates have clear foreign policy for supporting Secularism.

4) Neither 2 major parties are planning to enhance Secular democracy in USA.
5) Neither 2 major parties have clear foreign policy for supporting Human/Women’s Rights...
6) Neither 2 major parties have clear foreign policy for supporting Free and Responsible Society.
7) Neither presidential candidates are planning to support freedom and human rights at global level
8] Neither presidential candidates intent to gather moral and international support for the rejection of all religiously-based, gender-biased, racially-biased or apartheid, and ideologically extreme governments, realizing that these governments are a main source of creating fearful societies and terrorism in the world.

9] Neither presidential candidates support the following:
Quote:
Real Change Inflection Theory For Social & Political Process :
We have examined and discussed Cyrus The Great Leadership for Real Change inflection theory versus Machiavelli vision since 2001, and new world order vision based on high code of ethics , ethical state, peace and harmony among nations, free society, human rights, secular democracy , Facts, Truth , Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds and leadeship rules of optimal behavior throughout human history since 1993. The Real Change inflection theory for education and public awareness presented long before Obama used the term “Change” without substance as myth and hype. For understanding Real Change and how will it happen in real world please see references [1] , [2] and [11].
[1] Vision of Future For Change: Spirit Of Cyrus The Great Leadership Versus Machiavelli Vision
[2] Sept 11 Strategic Inflection Point For Change and New World Order
[11] Cyrus the Great (590 BC-529 BC) and Rules of greatness throughout human History

10] Neither presidential candidates supports religous Tax.
11] Why 1,209 Mosques in the USA in 2001 Sky-Rocketed to As Many As 6,000 Mosques in 2008 by allowing Saudi to spend billions?
12] Presidential candidates are script driven and they have not answered public questions on Internet...

13] No plan to stop International Human trafficking and Sex Slave Trades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking
Sexual slavery


Slavery in Zanzibar. 'An Arab master's punishment for a slight offence. The log weighed 32 pounds, and the boy could only move by carrying it on his head.' Unknown photographer, c. 1890.[17]


The Slave Market (c. 1884), painting by Jean-Leon Gerome. Painting suggests that White Europeans, particularly women, were brought as slaves in the Arab world.

cyrus wrote:


List Of Real World Huge Problems For Wise Church Leaders Who Might Listen To Reasons ...
1)Watch Video The A21 Campaign - Statistics
2)Watch Video Julia Ormond: Combating Human Trafficking
3) Watch Video Mark Lagon From State Dept. Defines and Explains Human Trafficking

Paula Dobriansky wrote:

Paula Dobriansky, Under Secretary for Democracy and Global Affairs
Washington, DC
April 19, 2007
http://www.state.gov/g/rls/rm/84936.htm
Let me give you just a few ideas of what individuals can do:
- You can encourage your religious institutions to help victims around the world. You can support great NGOs and programs worldwide.
- You can encourage your state legislatures to pass state anti-trafficking laws so local and state law enforcement can join our federal efforts. You can talk to friends and neighbors and call law enforcement when you see suspicious activity.
- You can urge the news media to cover this struggle. Every time the media reports on slavery, it raises public awareness and leads to more victims being freed, or avoiding a horrible and tragic fate.



Quote:
In recent USA election Churches and religious groups from different religions wasted over 200 million dollars of cash, human resources regarding Prop 8 Campaign and rejecting same sex marriage....


If Churches and religious groups have ignored same sex marriage and allocated 200 million dollars of cash and human resources to help homeless/slave children then they would have served better the public, churches and religious people ...?


Please Read Human Trafficing and Slavery Statistics and think
March 6, 2007 in Global Warming, Slavery

http://steeno.wordpress.com/2007/03/06/human-trafficing-and-slavery-statistics/

Please Read Trafficking in Persons Report 2008
By State Dept.

http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2008/
The report is available in PDF format as a single file [PDF: 49 MB] for Download From U.S. State Dept.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/105655.pdf




14] We are the citizens of the United States of America who represent over 16% of the American people (over 45 millions) without candidates and Party ...

15) Neither presidential candidates recognized October 29th as Ineternational Day For Cyrus The Great ....
New Video: Cyrus the Great Day On October 29th

Dr. David Neiman wrote:

1) Please Watch Video Dr. David Neiman: Cyrus The Great 1.3
2) Dr. David Neiman: The Jews in Ancient Persia 1.4


16] These candidates don’t care about our votes in 2008 election .

17] To Friends of FREE IRAN Activists and Iranian-Americans
Kas nakharad poshte man joz nakhoone angoshte man (no-one will scratch my back except the nail of my finger)


18] After 2008 election hoping a new Party will be emerged from both major parties which this new Party might support the above list ....

19] Neither major political Parties in USA are separating the Iranian people (95%) from Islamic Barbarian Theocracy for their own evil hidden agenda to create Virtual Enemy out of Iran to justify bad deeds and dirty games (Condi Cold War Model) in future :
The Invaders and Occupiers of Iran Refer To It As TAAZI ….
The name Islamic Republic of Iran is a misnomer. There is nothing Iranian about this regime, and these terrorists should not be allowed to use the word "Iran" to describe their regime. This illegitimate, tyrannical, barbaric, immoral, and foreign occupying force as "IRI," and will simply refer to it as the Islamic Republic, which is the epitome of all that is Taazi.

20] Neither presidential candidates rejected the following:
Save DOLPHINS wrote:


Must Watch: KILLING DOLPHINS IN JAPAN FOR FOOD Video
Fight To Save Taiji Dolphins Video Clip


Petition 43: Stop the dolphin and whale killings (brutal slaughter) in Taiji


Sign the Petition -
View Current Signatures


http://www.petitiononline.com/golfinho/petition.html





American Visitor wrote:
Cyrus,

We will soon see how things work out. I hope you are correct and I am wrong, and that secularism is a positive thing, but so far the signs bode ill. Perhaps I'm not being fair to secularists, by equating them with the Democrat party. I recognize that there may be some differences. The reason I'm making that connection is because many of their policies are exactly what we have seen elsewhere when secularists gain power. I imagine you will disagree with this proxy, but if so perhaps you can offer a better one to test secularism.
.

Neither Democratic nor Republican Party can be considered as secularist Party. However majority of white Americans and youth who voted for Obama are Secularists.

Those who mix politics, religion, race, gender and government are going to destroy both government and religion.....

President Bush Admin is a recent example that they have tried very hard to mix politics, religion, government ….
Are you happy with results in USA, Iraq, Iran … ?
You might be happy but today over 80% of American people are not happy with the results ….

Secularism and Cyrus The Great Union vision in next 20 years for [ USA, Iran, Israel, Iraq, Tajistan, .....] are the key long term solution for better society and better government in future….

Please Watch Video The Third Jihad and Think - The FREE 30-Minute Version

Source:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-864522917532871834&hl=en

Freedom-Loving Americans wrote:


Decision 2008 Priorities : U.S. Foreign and Energy Policy General Common Sense Expectations and Demands


We are the citizens of the United States of America who represent the majority of the American people who strongly adhere to the following beliefs:

1) We believe in the concept of complete secularism in government, which generally means complete separation of the State from religion, or any ideology or philosophy which can be interpreted as religious (e. g. Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islamism, Judaism, etc., or extreme ideologies such as Fascism or Communism). Secularism can be considered as common sense versus Ideology.

2) Democracy without secularism and secular parties cannot survive and continue a tradition of freedom of choice when a non-secular regime comes to power, as demonstrated by the Nazi party in Germany, the Khomeinist regime in Iran, and more recently by the Hamas Party in Palestine. This principle has been proven historically many times and in many countries.

3) When there is religious intervention in the affairs of the public and the State, then it become necessary to make public the fact that a religion or its precepts have influenced governmental institutions. It becomes a duty of citizens, in the interests of freedom, to work to remove that religious influence, and restore secular governance.




We believe that, in this century, real change starts with breakthroughs in less expensive and environmentally less-harmful energy sources such as hydrogen fuels, solar power, wind power, and geo-thermal energy, representing possibly safer alternatives to fossil fuels. The greatest changes for the better will be delivered by the world’s brilliant engineering minds, not politicians (Democrats or Republicans) who, for the past 40 years, have virtually ignored support for research in alternative sources of energy.


We recommend that support for qualified candidates for public office be based on past good deeds and public service, independent of political party affiliation or pre-assigned tags of left, center, right, liberal or conservative.

Our future expectations of policy makers and leaders with regard to foreign policy are defined by a new set of criteria based on test cases designed to be able to measure success and failure more objectively. Our recommended test cases and criteria are based on the vision of the founding fathers of the United States of America and those philosophies that informed them, including the works of Cyrus the Great, and Plato. We believe that this ancient and enduring spirit of freedom was embodied in the U.S. Constitution, and includes the following elements:

1- The implementation of a secular democracy
2- The implementation of enduring and inalienable Human/Women’s Rights
3- The implementation of a Free and Responsible Society
4- The promulgation of freedom and human rights at global level
5- The intent to gather moral and international support for the rejection of all religiously-based, gender-biased, racially-biased or apartheid, and ideologically extreme governments, realizing that these governments are a main source of creating fearful societies and terrorism in the world.


Independently of who is chosen for public office in the elections of 2008, we resolve to remain vigilant, and to continue to pressure elected officials to move in the aforementioned directions, to help assure a better future for all freedom-loving, secularist peoples. We will continue to make use of any communication media available to us in order to further this cause. The struggle toward a better future will not end with any one election, and we will always remember that only Truth, Honesty, and Integrity have survived, and will survive, the test of time and history.



Quick Overview of the Vision of Cyrus the Great:
Cyrus the Great, the father of first Human Rights declaration over 2500 years ago, advocated the abolition of slavery and ethnic or racial discrimination, freedom to choose one's place of residence, freedom of religious belief, and the establishment of peace among nations. Such ideas are still alive and are clearly esteemed by all those who believe in human dignity and human rights. The Persians regarded Cyrus The Great as The Father, the Babylonians regarded him as The Liberator, the Greeks called him the Law-Giver, and the Jews called him the Anointed of the Lord. Prof. Richard Frye of Harvard University is quoted as saying, “…Surely the concept of One World, and the fusion of peoples and cultures in one 'Oecumen', was one of [Cyrus the Great’s] important legacies”. Therefore, Cyrus the Great is considered to be one of the greatest political leaders and liberators of all time. October 29th has been designated as the international day of Cyrus the Great, king of Persia , who declared the first charter of human rights in the world, which is also known as the ‘Cyrus Cylinder’.

The Vision of the American Founding Fathers:
The founding fathers -- George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Adams -- are extraordinarily impressive revolutionary figures, with unique educational influences. Recent research by historians has found that Cyrus The Great’s Book by Xenophon, and ‘The Prince’ by Machiavelli, were required reading among the American Revolutionary Founding Fathers. Personal copies of these books owned by Founding Fathers exist in Library of Congress. The drafting of the Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitution was, however, more influenced by Cyrus The Great’s leadership and vision than Machiavelli. Cyrus The Great’s leadership vision is based on the ideas of a free society, human rights, sound moral values and a high code of ethics, versus the Machiavellian vision based on a fearful society, with perhaps immoral and unethical means advocated in order to control society. The American Founding Fathers were not essentially Machiavellian, and that is why they were able to create a great foundation upon which to build a nation.



We should try to find an answer to the following question: How could the founding fathers have achieved so much in such a short period of time, while current generations seemingly cannot achieve nearly as much, although endowed with far superior technological power and knowledge?

To safeguard our freedoms, we always remember James Madison’s famous statement: "If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself [italics ours]. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.” The Federalist No. 51 (James Madison).


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:06 am    Post subject: Jonestown Reply with quote

CNN wrote:
Inside the Jonestown massacre Story Highlights
- In 1978, 909 Americans were led to mass murder-suicide by Rev. Jim Jones
- One-third of the dead at Jonestown were children; only 33 people survived
- Jones was a self-appointed minister and phony faith healer from the Midwest
- Unlike his followers, Jones was shot in the head, probably by a trusted aide

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/12/jonestown.factsheet/index.html?iref=newssearch

CNN) -- Thirty years ago, 909 Americans were led to their death by the Rev. Jim Jones in a mass murder-suicide pact in a South American jungle, shortly after Jones' gunmen killed a visiting U.S. congressman and four others at a nearby airstrip.


One-third of the victims were children. Many were killed by Jones' aides, who squirted cyanide down their throats.

Of the nearly 1,000 church members who began the day in Jonestown, a cult commune, only 33 survived to see the next day.

The following is a thumbnail history of the Jonestown tragedy on Nov. 18, 1978:

What happened? More than 900 Americans died in a South American jungle upon the orders of Rev. Jim Jones, who had tried to create a socialist paradise that survivors called a slave camp.

What led up to this? When California Rep. Leo Ryan arrived on a one-man investigative mission, bringing along a TV camera crew and various reporters, 15 church members asked to leave with him. Jones sent gunmen to a nearby airstrip, where they killed Ryan, an NBC correspondent and his cameraman, a newspaper photographer and one of the departing family members.

Who was Jim Jones? He was a self-appointed minister from a small town in the Midwest, who first led his flock to California, where he hoped to avoid fallout from a possible nuclear war. He then moved his people to Guyana when he came under criticism for church beatings and financial abuses.


Escape from Jonestown
Thirty years ago, more than 900 people died by murder and suicide. Only 33 survived. Soledad O'Brien reports on their untold stories.
Thursday, 9 p.m. ET

see full schedule »
Where did the money come from? Jones was a phony faith healer, and much of his money came in mail-order donations from the desperate. Elderly members handed over their Social Security checks, working adults gave 25 percent of their wages to the church and some signed over all their property. Government investigators would later find at least $10 million in Swiss banks, mainly in Panama. Another $1 million in cash was recovered in Jonestown.

Did anyone survive? Thirty-three people who began that day in Jonestown escaped with their lives. There were two main groups of survivors. Eleven people, four of them small children, walked almost 30 miles through the jungle to another town. Fourteen departing church members lived through the airport ambush -- five of them youngsters who were lost for three days when they ran into the jungle to hide. See list of survivors

What happened to the killers? All but one of the airport gunmen died in the mass suicide. Larry Layton, who posed as a defector, was captured after badly wounding two people inside a plane trying to take off. He was not paroled from an American prison until 2002.


How did Jones die? He did not drink the cyanide. He was shot in the head, probably by a trusted aide, at the very end. His body was among the first to be identified -- through fingerprints that had been taken after a vice squad arrest five years earlier in the men's room of a Los Angeles movie theater.

What is left of Jonestown today? Nothing. The settlement has disappeared, the buildings dismantled and carried away by native Indians. Jungle weeds and trees have overgrown the area again. The only notable relic left to be found are the remains of one small rusting garden tractor. What persists is simply silence



Quote:
Jonestown


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

"Jonestown, Guyana" redirects here. For the community in Demerara, Guyana, see Jonestown, Demerara.
For other uses, see Jonestown (disambiguation).

Peoples Temple Agricultural Project ("Jonestown", Guyana)Jonestown was the informal name for the "Peoples Temple Agricultural Project", an intentional community in northwestern Guyana formed by the Peoples Temple, a cult from California led by Jim Jones. It became internationally notorious in November of 1978, when 918 people died in the settlement as well as in a nearby airstrip and in Georgetown, Guyana's capital. The name of the settlement became synonymous for the incidents at those locations.

On November 18, 1978, 909 Temple members died in Jonestown, all but two from apparent cyanide poisoning in an event termed "revolutionary suicide" by Jones and some members on an audio tape of the event and in prior discussions. To the extent the actions in Jonestown were viewed as a mass suicide, it is the largest such event in modern history. The incident at Jonestown was the greatest single loss of American civilian life in a non-natural disaster until the events of September 11, 2001.

The poisonings in Jonestown followed the murder of five others by Temple members at a nearby Port Kaituma airstrip. The victims included Congressman Leo Ryan, the first and only Congressman murdered in the line of duty in the history of the United States.


Quote:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6113755.html
The preacher, who once charmed U.S. politicians and met with future first lady Rosalynn Carter, had turned into a pill-popping dictator who presided over harsh discipline.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyrus,

You have put up quite a bit of material. I want to address your most important points. Because maintaining a healthy culture which can support freedom and democracy is messy, I wish secularism were an easy answer. It is not.

Cyrus wrote:

Quote:
Secularism is not Ideology because it does not have rigid framework,

Secularism is Equal to Common Sense.

Cyrus The Great is Father of Secularism because he was first leader who practiced it in the real world as Persian Empire was Secular State .

Religion must be treated as a private matter ….

If the religion is not private matter then rejecting or criticizing religion will become a fare game


I agree that secularism is much more simple that other ideologies such as Marxism, but who says an ideology has to be complex. As it is practiced today, it is extremely rigid. Although those who invented secularism probably didn't realize how it would develop, it has developed into an attack on Western culture. The natural result of secularism is "multiculturalism." That means that the previously dominant culture is replaced with many cultures. Secularists are generally very zealous to protect the new cultures from slights from the dominant culture. Hence the PC speech codes.

As I have already discussed, the assertion that my religion must be treated as a private matter is diametrically opposed to the founding principles of this nation. Our founders were for freedom of religion, not suppression of religion.

The statement that secularism is common sense is a statement of opinion. In a free society, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine. When secularists impose their opinion on me and my family then it becomes tyranny.

Cyrus is the hero of the Iranian resistance and I wish those who use him as their guide the best. As I have pointed out, kings such as Cyrus create their own consensus. A democracy needs a culture which has common moral values and culture which will support the democracy.

Cyrus wrote:

Quote:
Neither Democratic nor Republican Party can be considered as secularist Party. However majority of white Americans and youth who voted for Obama are Secularists.

Those who mix politics, religion, race, gender and government are going to destroy both government and religion.....

President Bush Admin is a recent example that they have tried very hard to mix politics, religion, government ….
Are you happy with results in USA, Iraq, Iran … ?
You might be happy but today over 80% of American people are not happy with the results ….

Secularism and Cyrus The Great Union vision in next 20 years for [ USA, Iran, Israel, Iraq, Tajistan, .....] are the key long term solution for better society and better government in future….


I'm glad that we both agree that the Democratic party today is a good proxy for the secularists. As we watch them assert their control over the country, let us see if the country becomes more free or less free. I suspect that within 4 years, we Americans will have moved a substantial distance down the path which Venezuela has followed.

I'm not sure where this notion that George Bush tried to set up a theocracy came from. His only nod towards religion seems to have been faith based initiatives. I disagree with that because that is government giving taxpayer money to religious organizations. That is not freedom of religion. His dealings with the Middle East has been totally secular. If George Bush were trying to help Christians, rather than invading Iraq, he would have intervened in Sudan where there is ongoing genocide against Christians in the south and black Muslims in the west. In both Iraq and Afghanistan, the people have chosen pro-Islamic governments. Christians are non-existent in Afghanistan and are fleeing Iraq. Bush has done nothing to protect Christians in either country.

Public opinion changes often depending on the way news is presented and the feelings of the moment. What matters is whether our institutional freedoms are preserved. As I have pointed out, under Bush we are still free. Under the new administration, I suspect we will lose many of those freedoms. It will be interesting to watch. Let us watch history unfold under a regime which is determined to uproot our Judeo-Christian culture with a new and improved secular culture.

If we can agree that the present Democrat party is a good proxy for secularism, let us agree to watch secularism in action. Perhaps we can get together on a yearly basis and see how our freedoms are faring.

Finally, I would like to present a passage from the McGuffey's reader which reflects traditional America.
Quote:
McGuffey's Fifth Eclectic Reader.
Copyright, 1879, by VAN ANTWERP, BRAGG & CO.
Copyright, 1896, by AMERICAN BOOK COMPANY.
Copyright, 1907 and l920, by H. H. VAIL.

This is probably the best sample of traditional American culture which supported our democracy I can give you. The McGuffey readers were used widely in American public schools for about a century. This same reader had passages praising the Bible. As I have said, secularism is not traditional American culture, it is something new which is replacing our culture. You may think the new order is better than our traditional culture, but experience in other countries is not reassuring. By suppressing religious freedom, the secularists will unintentionally end up destroying all of our traditional freedoms.

FIFTH READER. pp. 284-286

Quote:
XCIII. RELIGION THE ONLY BASIS OF SOCIETY.
William Ellery Channing (b. 1780, d. 1842), an eminent
divine and orator, was born at Newport, R.I. He graduated from
Harvard with the highest honors in 1798, and, in 1803, he was
made pastor of the Federal Street Church, Boston, with which he
maintained his connection until his death. Towards the close of his
life, being much enfeebled, he withdrew almost entirely from his
pastoral duties, and devoted himself to literature. Dr. Channing's
writings are published in six volumes, and are mainly devoted to
theology.

1. Religion is a social concern; for it operates powerfully on
society, contributing in various ways to its stability and prosperity.
Religion is not merely a private affair; the community is deeply
interested in its diffusion; for it is the best support of the virtues
and principles, on which the social order rests. Pure and undefiled
religion is to do good; and it follows, very plainly, that if God be
the Author and Friend of society, then, the recognition of him
must enforce all social duty, and enlightened piety must give its
whole strength to public order.

2. Few men suspect, perhaps no man comprehends, the extent
of the support given by religion to every virtue. No man, perhaps,
is aware how much our moral and social sentiments are fed from
this fountain; how powerless conscience would become without
the belief of a God; how palsied would be human benevolence,
were there not the sense of a higher benevolence to quicken and
sustain it; how suddenly the whole social fabric would quake, and
with what a fearful crash it would sink into hopeless ruin, were the
ideas of a Supreme Being, of accountableness and of a future life
to be utterly erased from every mind.

3. And, let men thoroughly believe that they are the work and
sport of chance; that no superior intelligence concerns itself with
human affairs; that all their improvements perish forever at death;
that the weak have no guardian, and the injured no avenger; that
there is no recompense for sacrifices to uprightness and the public
good; that an oath is unheard in heaven; that secret crimes have no
witness but the perpetrator; that human existence has no purpose,
and human virtue no unfailing friend; that this brief life is
everything to us, and death is total, everlasting extinction; once let
them thoroughly abandon religion, and who can conceive or
describe the extent of the desolation which would follow?

4. We hope, perhaps, that human laws and natural sympathy
would hold society together. As reasonably might we believe that
were the sun quenched in the heavens, our torches would
illuminate, and our fires quicken and fertilize the creation. What is
there in human nature to awaken respect and tenderness, if man is
the unprotected insect of a day? And what is he more, if atheism
be true?

5. Erase all thought and fear of God from a community, and
selfishness and sensuality would absorb the whole man. Appetite,
knowing no restraint, and suffering, having no solace or hope,
would trample in scorn on the restraints
of human laws. Virtue, duty, principle, would be mocked and
spurned as unmeaning sounds. A sordid self-interest would
supplant every feeling; and man would become, in fact, what the
theory in atheism declares him to be,--a companion for brutes.
[url]http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15040/15040-pdf.pdf [/url]
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Jonestown Reply with quote

Quote:


Video Jim Jones And The Jonestown Tragedy



Michael M. Bates wrote:

CNN's 'Escape From Jonestown' Downplays Democratic Connections
By Michael M. Bates (Bio | Archive)

November 14, 2008 - 11:37 ET

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/michael-m-bates/2008/11/14/cnns-escape-jonestown-downplays-democratic-connections

On Thursday, CNN aired "Escape from Jonestown," presented by CNN special investigations unit corespondent Soledad O'Brien. This week marks thirty years since the horrific deaths of more than 900 people, roughly a third of them children, at Jonestown. The massacre was orchestrated by "Reverend" Jim Jones. What CNN barely referenced was Jones's connection to several leading Democratic politicians of the time. O'Brien did identify Jones as a believer in socialism and, with a survivor, passingly alluded to his influence in the Democratic Party:


O'BRIEN: In 1975, Jones moved his church headquarters from Redwood Valley down to San Francis, to a larger stage, where he became a political force and a face in photo-ops.

GOSNEY: Roslyn (sic) Carter was campaigning for Jimmy Carter. I believe that was 1976. And there was going to be a rally downtown. Literally, we stuffed the building. We were -- we were the rally.

Jones was much more than a face in a photo-op. Democratic San Francisco Mayor George Moscone appointed him to the city's housing authority. Willie Brown, who later served as Democratic Speaker of the California Assembly, in 1976 introduced Jones as a combination Martin Luther King, Angela Davis, Albert Einstein and Chairman Mao.

That same year Senator Walter Mondale, later elected vice president, invited Jones to meet with him on his campaign plane. The People's Temple chief also had a personal meeting with Jimmy Carter's wife, Rosalynn.

Jones referenced that in 1977 when he wrote to the First Lady and recommended the U.S. government give Cuba medical supplies. He mentioned his "deep appreciation for the privilege of dining privately with you prior to the election." She replied by saying she'd enjoyed the experience and hoped the U.S. would adopt his suggestion on Cuba.

When Jones moved his operation to Guyana, he brought with him written accolades from several liberal Democrats.

Wrote Walter Mondale: "Knowing of your congregation's deep involvement in the major social and constitutional issues of our country is a great inspiration to me."

Alaska Senator Mike Gravel thought the People's Temple "was almost too good to be true." California Congressman Don Edwards expressed the wish that "there were more like the people of the People's Temple Christian Church."

Joseph Califano, an official in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations and secretary of health, education and welfare for Jimmy Carter wrote Jones: "Knowing your commitment and compassion, your interest in protecting individual liberty and freedom have made an outstanding contribution to furthering the cause of human dignity."

Former Vice President Hubert Humphrey said that Jones' work "is testimony to the positive and truly Christian approach to dealing with the myriad problems confronting our society today."

No, Jim Jones was more than just a face in a photo-op. He benefited from the attention and praise of several notable Democratic politicians of the era. In a two-hour program, that relevant part of history should have been reported.


Quote:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6113755.html
The preacher, who once charmed U.S. politicians and met with future first lady Rosalynn Carter, had turned into a pill-popping dictator who presided over harsh discipline.

CNN wrote:


Devil of Jonestown

Published on: 11/16/08.
Source:
http://www.nationnews.com/story/320447681512530.php

THIRTY YEARS AGO, 909 Americans were led to their death by the Reverend Jim Jones in a mass murder-suicide pact in a South American jungle, shortly after Jones' gunmen killed a visiting United States congressman and four others at a nearby airstrip.



One-third of the victims were children. Many were killed by Jones' aides, who squirted cyanide down their throats.

Of the nearly 1 000 church members who began the day in Jonestown, a cult commune, only 33 survived to see the next day.

(CNN)


cyrus wrote:
CNN wrote:
Inside the Jonestown massacre Story Highlights
- In 1978, 909 Americans were led to mass murder-suicide by Rev. Jim Jones
- One-third of the dead at Jonestown were children; only 33 people survived
- Jones was a self-appointed minister and phony faith healer from the Midwest
- Unlike his followers, Jones was shot in the head, probably by a trusted aide

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/12/jonestown.factsheet/index.html?iref=newssearch

CNN) -- Thirty years ago, 909 Americans were led to their death by the Rev. Jim Jones in a mass murder-suicide pact in a South American jungle, shortly after Jones' gunmen killed a visiting U.S. congressman and four others at a nearby airstrip.


One-third of the victims were children. Many were killed by Jones' aides, who squirted cyanide down their throats.

Of the nearly 1,000 church members who began the day in Jonestown, a cult commune, only 33 survived to see the next day.

The following is a thumbnail history of the Jonestown tragedy on Nov. 18, 1978:

What happened? More than 900 Americans died in a South American jungle upon the orders of Rev. Jim Jones, who had tried to create a socialist paradise that survivors called a slave camp.

What led up to this? When California Rep. Leo Ryan arrived on a one-man investigative mission, bringing along a TV camera crew and various reporters, 15 church members asked to leave with him. Jones sent gunmen to a nearby airstrip, where they killed Ryan, an NBC correspondent and his cameraman, a newspaper photographer and one of the departing family members.

Who was Jim Jones? He was a self-appointed minister from a small town in the Midwest, who first led his flock to California, where he hoped to avoid fallout from a possible nuclear war. He then moved his people to Guyana when he came under criticism for church beatings and financial abuses.


Escape from Jonestown
Thirty years ago, more than 900 people died by murder and suicide. Only 33 survived. Soledad O'Brien reports on their untold stories.
Thursday, 9 p.m. ET

see full schedule »
Where did the money come from? Jones was a phony faith healer, and much of his money came in mail-order donations from the desperate. Elderly members handed over their Social Security checks, working adults gave 25 percent of their wages to the church and some signed over all their property. Government investigators would later find at least $10 million in Swiss banks, mainly in Panama. Another $1 million in cash was recovered in Jonestown.

Did anyone survive? Thirty-three people who began that day in Jonestown escaped with their lives. There were two main groups of survivors. Eleven people, four of them small children, walked almost 30 miles through the jungle to another town. Fourteen departing church members lived through the airport ambush -- five of them youngsters who were lost for three days when they ran into the jungle to hide. See list of survivors

What happened to the killers? All but one of the airport gunmen died in the mass suicide. Larry Layton, who posed as a defector, was captured after badly wounding two people inside a plane trying to take off. He was not paroled from an American prison until 2002.


How did Jones die? He did not drink the cyanide. He was shot in the head, probably by a trusted aide, at the very end. His body was among the first to be identified -- through fingerprints that had been taken after a vice squad arrest five years earlier in the men's room of a Los Angeles movie theater.

What is left of Jonestown today? Nothing. The settlement has disappeared, the buildings dismantled and carried away by native Indians. Jungle weeds and trees have overgrown the area again. The only notable relic left to be found are the remains of one small rusting garden tractor. What persists is simply silence



Quote:
Jonestown


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

"Jonestown, Guyana" redirects here. For the community in Demerara, Guyana, see Jonestown, Demerara.
For other uses, see Jonestown (disambiguation).

Peoples Temple Agricultural Project ("Jonestown", Guyana)Jonestown was the informal name for the "Peoples Temple Agricultural Project", an intentional community in northwestern Guyana formed by the Peoples Temple, a cult from California led by Jim Jones. It became internationally notorious in November of 1978, when 918 people died in the settlement as well as in a nearby airstrip and in Georgetown, Guyana's capital. The name of the settlement became synonymous for the incidents at those locations.

On November 18, 1978, 909 Temple members died in Jonestown, all but two from apparent cyanide poisoning in an event termed "revolutionary suicide" by Jones and some members on an audio tape of the event and in prior discussions. To the extent the actions in Jonestown were viewed as a mass suicide, it is the largest such event in modern history. The incident at Jonestown was the greatest single loss of American civilian life in a non-natural disaster until the events of September 11, 2001.

The poisonings in Jonestown followed the murder of five others by Temple members at a nearby Port Kaituma airstrip. The victims included Congressman Leo Ryan, the first and only Congressman murdered in the line of duty in the history of the United States.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: I don't believe in atheists Reply with quote

Chris Hedges wrote:


Interview with Chris Hedges, author of "I Don't Believe in Atheists"


http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/03/13/chris_hedges/

I don't believe in atheists
Foreign correspondent and intellectual provocateur Chris Hedges explains why New Atheists like Christopher Hitchens are as dangerous as Christian fundamentalists.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyrus,

I enjoyed the article by Chris Hedges. I agree with most of what he said. His point against militant atheists is what I’ve been getting at.

The goal of the United States from the beginning has been to enhance the principles of equality under the law, freedom, and prosperity. Any time the government interferes in the affairs of men, it inevitably limits those freedoms. This desire for freedom was derived from the founders belief in God, but freedom means that belief in God must be voluntary, not coerced. My problem with the anti-Christian fundamentalists is not that they are atheists or agnostics, it is because they want to limit other people's freedom to practice and express their Christian religion as they please. It is difficult to imagine a free people who do not have religious freedom.

I have found nothing in modern Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, or Judaism which is inherently opposed to people's freedom to believe as they wish. The modern state of India is an excellent example of a group outside the Judeo-Christian culture who have succeeded in supporting a democratic and relatively free society. While each of those religions has an intolerant faction who believe they have the right to interfere with other people's religious freedom, the religions themselves are not fundamentally aligned against religious or secular freedom.

Mr. Hedges equated those who expect further terrorist attacks with racists. I don't understand his argument here. Islam is a religion, not an race of people. Many Arabs (and Iranians) are victims of the Islamic fundamentalists. I have studied extensively with Muslims and I still have not found any evidence that Islam is compatible with religious freedom and a free democracy. I leave the door open to a more moderate interpretation of Islam, but so far there are few Muslims who have found a religious mandate for freedom and democracy in their religion. They seem to be an impotent minority in their community. Turkey doesn't really qualify since Ataturk was secularist. He opposed traditional Islam as it had been practiced in his country. So long as the majority in Islam support imposing sharia law on everyone, I believe the secularists are correct to limit the influence of Islam in the public domain.

I have seen Muslims decry the influence of the Saudi government and the Wahhabis in their country. Their resistance to the Wahhabis leaves the door for open a more moderate strain of Islam. Although the Muslims I have talked to aren't there yet, it is still possible that they will find a new way to interpret Islam. Whether the vast majority of Muslims will ever reach that point is still open to debate. The Muslims I have talked to have not been able to embraced Islam and simultaneously love freedom for Christians, Hindus, and Jews. Until Muslims can embrace religious freedom as part of their core religious beliefs, mainstream Islam itself will remain as an oppressive political ideology; not a bonafide religion.

Sharia law as I understand it is contradictory to religious freedom for non-Muslims. As long as a large percent of Muslims wish to impose sharia law on other people, Islam itself is dangerously subversive to the values which led to the founding of this country. When Muslims begin to rise to the leadership position in promoting human rights for everyone, I will be thrilled to change my opinion. What I have just said may not be politically correct but it is based on many hours of actual conversations with Muslims. My observations are not based on race, the individual who spent the most time explaining his beliefs to me was a European.

I don't think that Mr. Bush's mistakes in foreign policy are based on fundamentalist religious belief. I very much question whether he is a fundamentalist Christian. The fundamentalist Christians I know would not make the mistakes president Bush has made. Fundamentalist Christians are usually much more sensitive to cultural differences than president Bush. Most of the mistakes Bush made seem to be caused by his misunderstanding of other cultures. I have visited his boyhood home in Texas. It is very remote. I have also listened carefully to his advisor, Mrs. Hughes whom I believe came from the same area in Texas. I don't think either one of them has any idea what Muslims believe or who they are. They were probably so isolated growing up in Texas that they didn't even know any Muslims. They went wading into the Middle East oblivious to the cultural differences between Iraq and Midland, Texas. They assumed the Iraqis would react to them in the same way that people from the heart of Texas would react when a foreigner came in and "liberated" them from a dictator. Their intentions were good, but they didn't have enough understanding about other cultures.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear American Visitor,

American Visitor wrote:
Cyrus,

I enjoyed the article by Chris Hedges. I agree with most of what he said. His point against militant atheists is what I’ve been getting at.


Glad you like it, Chris Hedges is very experienced and knowledgeable journalist.
Due to the fact that true Secularism is not ideology therefore you will see many different views among secularists …


American Visitor wrote:



Mr. Hedges equated those who expect further terrorist attacks with racists. I don't understand his argument here. Islam is a religion, not an race of people. Many Arabs (and Iranians) are victims of the Islamic fundamentalists. I have studied extensively with Muslims and I still have not found any evidence that Islam is compatible with religious freedom and a free democracy. I leave the door open to a more moderate interpretation of Islam, but so far there are few Muslims who have found a religious mandate for freedom and democracy in their religion. They seem to be an impotent minority in their community. Turkey doesn't really qualify since Ataturk was secularist. He opposed traditional Islam as it had been practiced in his country. So long as the majority in Islam support imposing sharia law on everyone, I believe the secularists are correct to limit the influence of Islam in the public domain.

I have seen Muslims decry the influence of the Saudi government and the Wahhabis in their country. Their resistance to the Wahhabis leaves the door for open a more moderate strain of Islam. Although the Muslims I have talked to aren't there yet, it is still possible that they will find a new way to interpret Islam. Whether the vast majority of Muslims will ever reach that point is still open to debate. The Muslims I have talked to have not been able to embraced Islam and simultaneously love freedom for Christians, Hindus, and Jews. Until Muslims can embrace religious freedom as part of their core religious beliefs, mainstream Islam itself will remain as an oppressive political ideology; not a bonafide religion.

Sharia law as I understand it is contradictory to religious freedom for non-Muslims. As long as a large percent of Muslims wish to impose sharia law on other people, Islam itself is dangerously subversive to the values which led to the founding of this country. When Muslims begin to rise to the leadership position in promoting human rights for everyone, I will be thrilled to change my opinion. What I have just said may not be politically correct but it is based on many hours of actual conversations with Muslims. My observations are not based on race, the individual who spent the most time explaining his beliefs to me was a European.


Agree with you, please remember great majority of those who call themselves Muslim have their own culture and don’t really practice Islam … Today there are 1000 kind of Muslim ....

Today great majority of Iranians consider Islam as symbor of shame and reject it ...

Great Iranian Hero Dr. Kourosh Ariamanesh "No Iranian Is Muslim and No Muslim Is Iranian …". Professor Ariamanesh assassinated on 28 May 1996 in Paris at age 60 by The Islamist Taazi Occupiers Of Iran Agents Source: http://www.sarafrazan.net/ariamanesh.htm

American Visitor wrote:

I don't think that Mr. Bush's mistakes in foreign policy are based on fundamentalist religious belief. I very much question whether he is a fundamentalist Christian. The fundamentalist Christians I know would not make the mistakes president Bush has made. Fundamentalist Christians are usually much more sensitive to cultural differences than president Bush. Most of the mistakes Bush made seem to be caused by his misunderstanding of other cultures. I have visited his boyhood home in Texas. It is very remote. I have also listened carefully to his advisor, Mrs. Hughes whom I believe came from the same area in Texas. I don't think either one of them has any idea what Muslims believe or who they are. They were probably so isolated growing up in Texas that they didn't even know any Muslims. They went wading into the Middle East oblivious to the cultural differences between Iraq and Midland, Texas. They assumed the Iraqis would react to them in the same way that people from the heart of Texas would react when a foreigner came in and "liberated" them from a dictator. Their intentions were good, but they didn't have enough understanding about other cultures.


Agree, most probably President Bush intentions was good but those who were in charge of planning and implementation phase had other hidden agenda (Oil Companies, Cold War Game ...) that will be exposed in next few years by President Bush insiders ...

Happy Thanks Giving,
Cyrus
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyrus,

As we agree, there are undoubtedly many Muslims who are looking for a better way to interpret their religion. While Muslims seeking to leave fundamentalism will have to find their own way, I would like to offer some thoughts.

1. Both Christians and Muslims believe that there is one creator God. Because God is the ultimate creator, we are all equal before God. Although neither group practices this consistently, racism is against both religions. (I'm not arguing against evolution. I'm stating the underlying assumption in Christian and Islamic morality).

2. Jesus called God His father. The concept that God cares for us and loves us personally is the foundation of Christian morality. Ideally, all moral rules and secular laws in a Christian culture are based on these two axioms, the universal brotherhood of all mankind and God's all pervasive love. There are some foundational rules, found especially in the Ten Commandments, which have withstood the test of time and are not alterable. These fixed laws are not arbitrary. They are true because they reflect God's love for mankind. God's will is for all human society to flourish. These laws are foundational because the rule of law is necessary for an orderly society. I don't know how many Muslims believe that Allah loves them unconditionally, but those who don't understand Allah's love need to rethink their religion.

3. At the heart of both Judaism and Christianity is God's eagerness to forgive us. Because of God's love, knowledgeable Christians don't worry much about their eternal salvation. Anyone who is afraid of God needs to come to a better understanding. We should be able to enjoy our religion without fear of eternal torment.

4. Because God loves us unconditionally, the only service which is acceptable to God is unconditional love in return. Good deeds, motivated by fear of hell or greed for rewards, are not good deeds at all. They are motivated by selfishness do not reflect God's unconditional love. Christians can never reach God's unconditional love, but that is not a serious problem because God understands we are humans. Regardless of who they target, suicide bombers are usually motivated by fear of hell and greed for rewards, therefore their "martyrdom" is morally unacceptable. Anything we do to earn heaven or to avoid hell is inherently selfish and does not count for genuine righteousness.

5. Only God can love unconditionally at all times. As humans, we all need to act selfishly at times. Some Westerners have forgetten this principle. Defending oneself and those we love is a well recognized right which is best demonstrated in the Old Testament. Great Western thinkers have developed well defined principles for just wars. Those going into a just war should always remember that God loves their enemies just as much as He loves us, and they should act accordingly. Our enemies today may be our friends tomorrow.
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cyrus
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:03 pm    Post subject: Must Watch Video: There was nothing before Islam! Reply with quote

CapnOrdinary wrote:

Must Watch Video: There was nothing before Islam!


THE DAMN VIDEO BEFORE YOU LEAVE A RETARDED COMMENT ON MY CHANNEL,....

How the muslim world is distorting its own history.

LINKS
The original comment section that inspired this video
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servle...

Pre-islamic Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_...

Byzantine Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantin...

Sassanid Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid

Islamists in Pakistan attempt to distort history
http://www.dawn.com/2007/02/22/top2.htm

Something new I just found today (very related) (11-20-07):
http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm

Embryology in the Quran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_em...
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/engli...
http://www.nyam.org/initiatives/im-hi...
http://www.medicinaantiqua.org.uk/sa_...
http://pacs.unica.it/biblio/lesson2.htm
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cyrus
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: More Americans say they have no religion Reply with quote

RACHEL ZOLL wrote:

More Americans say they have no religion

By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer Rachel Zoll, Ap
Religion Writer – Mon Mar 9, 12:14 am ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090309/ap_on_re/rel_religious_america

A wide-ranging study on American religious life found that the Roman Catholic population has been shifting out o of the Northeast to the Southwest, the percentage of Christians in the nation has declined and more people say they have no religion at all.

Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2 percent in 2001 and 8.2 percent in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey.

Northern New England surpassed the Pacific Northwest as the least religious region, with Vermont reporting the highest share of those claiming no religion, at 34 percent. Still, the study found that the numbers of Americans with no religion rose in every state.

"No other religious bloc has kept such a pace in every state," the study's authors said.

.......
Please see the source :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090309/ap_on_re/rel_religious_america

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cyrus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: Iran, Arabs and Islam Reply with quote

Quote:

Iran, Arabs and Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oEeaYrNDAk

Please make sure you send this video to all of your friends. Let's get the truth out.


Quote 1-4: Ferdowsi Tusi

Quote 5-7: Omar Khayyam

Quote 8: Rumi

Quote 9: Rustam Farrokhzad

Quote 10: Biruni

Quote 11: Umar ibn Khattab

Quote 12: The Quran

Quote 13-15: Ibn Khaldoun

Quote 16: Muawiyah

Quote 17: Ibn Abbas

Quote 18: Ibn Sad

Quote 19: Kaveh Farrokh

Quote 20: Ibn Esfandyar

Quote 21: Hafez
Category: Education
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cyrus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: Charlie Rose - Stephen Hawking Reply with quote

In this interview Stephen Hawking answer question about God and when he talks about extreme Human stupidity reminds me of Khameni, Ahmadinejad and all Islamists regime follwers ....

Stephen Hawking wrote:
Charlie Rose - Stephen Hawking

Despite being almost completely paralyzed by ALS, Hawking
remains one of the world's foremost theoretical physicists and has contributed greatly to our understanding of the universe.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3016295328827362823#

Somi Abedinzadeh wrote:

"What I really like about Hawking is that he did a great job of bringing physics into people's everyday life, and popularising it. He's lives for a passion. I know that there are better physicists than him. But it's his passion that makes him stand out, and of course the fact that he has struggled so hard and stayed alive for so long and is still able to think."
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