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[FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great
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redemption
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 1158
Location: California
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 Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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"Guest" - first of all please create a "username" so we all know who we're discussing with here.. second of all - it would help the thread if we post some comments along with posting a picture and acting as though it speaks for itself.. If I wanted to I could post pictures of a thousand different handshakes throughout history that can be used in certain ways by some and in totally different ways by others.. A Picture means nothing - it is all about what is happening.. what is current policy.. and the future.. focus on the future, learn from the past - but don't indict present leaders and paralyze our march to freedom and the future with this incomplete assesment of history..
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IRANIANS UNITE
PERSIA LIVES ON!!
FREE IRAN NOW! |
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American Visitor
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Guest.
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with the picture.
My country has lost the will to fight for freedom for other people. The press, the Democratic party, people like you, and many people in Europe, South Korea, the entire Middle East, and Asia hate us because we have stood up for freedom. It is much easier to criticize the US than to stand up against the Islamists and other totalitarian regimes.
If it weren't for the US, Europe would be under the domination of a totalitarian regime of some type. It would be either the Nazis or the Communists or both. South Korea would be starving under the kind embrace of Kim and many entire families would be in the gouloug slave camps or Japan would still be ruled by an emperior God who would own much of China as their empire and all of Korea as their serfs. India would still be hopelessly poor led by communist leading leaders. Antisemitism would probably be the normal way of life with no one to oppose it if there were any Jews left to hate.
For many people this sounds great. Why should the US push it's cursed ideas of freedom and human rights on others? People living in freedom hate the country which has brought them freedom and judge Americans by their own selfish standards. Since they only deal with other countries in order to profit or benefit themsleves they think America always acts out of selfish purposes.
Unfortunately the criticism is starting to take hold in our country. Americans are asking themselves why they should spend liberally of their own money and die for ungrateful people around the world who rejoice every time a poor American gets his head slowly sawed off by a glorious religious fighter shouting "Allah Akbar." When people we died for glory in any American Soldier who dies and hope people like Saddam and Khomeini win, why should we exert ourselves to help them?
The world will be a much worse place when people like you have your way. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| American Visitor wrote: |
I'm not at all reluctant to admit it when our country does something wrong. I just don't think the Iran Iraq was was one of those cases.
The Vietnam war was also right, unfortunately the American people grew tired of sacrificing our lives for other people's freedom. Because of that the Vietnamese have suffered immensley under the Communists. Some of them including my relatives by marriage were so desperate to leave they took boats out to sea and endured severe deprivation and starvation to try to attain their freedom. They were attacked by pirates and the women gang raped. Their desire for freedom was so great they endured all this.
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You criticized Iran's war effort as wasteful and pointless. It is also possible to criticize the US war effort in any war in the same vein, even the Second World War:
I have spoken to more than one eastern European who preferred the Germans over the Soviets.
Being adamant about defeating the Germans meant helping build up the Communists and handing half of Europe over to them - The resulting rape and slaughter of German and Polish civilians by the advancing Red Army was unprecedented. US General George S. Patton bitterly regretted the outcome of the war. What a waste of life, fighting for FDR's schemes. Later, Communism spread to Korea and Vietnam, where Americans had to lose tens of thousands of men belatedly trying to contain it. But never mind that, lets just believe it was right.
| American Visitor wrote: |
Actually Japan was the country that attacked us and they thought they were justified because we didn't support their agression in China. But we won't worry about that, lets just hate America. |
Americans like John Toland, who also wrote "Battle: The Story of the Bulge", also wrote about FDR's foreknowledge of the Japanese attack (see "Infamy").
Likewise, Americans like researcher Joyce Battle, helped bring the documents about Iraq-gate to light.
Criticism and evaluation, aka Democracy, are traditional American and Western values - just because someone isn't aggreeing with you doesn't mean that they hate America.
| American Visitor wrote: |
(some text deleted)
The poor fellow who had his head slowly sawed off found out what Islamists had to do with Saddam. |
Saddam killed many Mullah's - the Mullah's, unlike the Americans, were never allied with Saddam. I am not sure who you mean by Islamists.
Quote:
| Quote: | Did the US, supposedly a model Democracy, bother to consult with the people of the region about what they wanted?
Those who experienced Saddam first hand can perhaps tell you what they would have preferred. |
| American Visitor wrote: |
(some text deleted)
Your question about what the people in the region wanted is a good one. I personally didn't support the war fully because I'm not sure people in the region are ready for true freedom with human rights. I think Saddam was possibly the best Iraq could produce. Bush went into this with the mistaken belief that Iraqis would love to live in a free democratic country just as much as we do. Instead the attitude appears to be "how dare those terrible Americans try to impose their form of government on us."
Perhaps after this the United States will respect the dictatorships over there more. It appears people in the Middle East love to be governed by dictators? You certainly know the Middle Eastern mind better than I. I'll have to take your word for it. You are probably correct here. |
Although I understand your viewpoint, in this instance I don't think you are giving much thought to how you sound.
The argument can easily be turned around:
The United States has had good relationships with dictatorships, and has subverted democracies. I am not sure that the US is ready to respect Human rights, after learning of its support for Saddam. Maybe these are the best policies Washington can produce. Iran went into Iraq with the idealistic notion that the Iraqi's would like their own type of government, based on the common heritage it shares with Iran. Instead, the attitude from the US appears to be "How dare those middle Easterners act contrary to US interests". It appears that the US loves to prop up murderers like Saddam? You certainly know the American mind better than I. I'll have to take your word for it. You are probably correct here.
This is just to show you how you sound. What we were talking about was the US's support for Saddam - Which we seem to always get away from.
| Anonymous wrote: | | American Visitor wrote: | | I believe the Iranian government is an outlaw government which has always wanted to kill as many Americans as possible. I have no doubt they are harboring and training terrorists to blow up our cities today. |
It is easy to have no doubts about something, if you don't think critically. Are you aware that dozens of Americans have been living in Iran during the whole time the regime existed? |
| American Visitor wrote: | Now you have hurt my feelings telling me I can't think critically.  I'm sure you are correct that there are dozens of Americans in Iraq, but I don't understand the importance of that. Perhaps if I could think more critically, I'd understand. |
It is difficult to argue that the Iranian government "has always wanted to kill as many Americans as possible", if dozens of Americans live in Iran, right? |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| American Visitor wrote: | Guest.
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with the picture.
My country has lost the will to fight for freedom for other people. The press, the Democratic party, people like you, and many people in Europe, South Korea, the entire Middle East, and Asia hate us because we have stood up for freedom. It is much easier to criticize the US than to stand up against the Islamists and other totalitarian regimes.
If it weren't for the US, Europe would be under the domination of a totalitarian regime of some type. It would be either the Nazis or the Communists or both. South Korea would be starving under the kind embrace of Kim and many entire families would be in the gouloug slave camps or Japan would still be ruled by an emperior God who would own much of China as their empire and all of Korea as their serfs. India would still be hopelessly poor led by communist leading leaders. Antisemitism would probably be the normal way of life with no one to oppose it if there were any Jews left to hate.
For many people this sounds great. Why should the US push it's cursed ideas of freedom and human rights on others? People living in freedom hate the country which has brought them freedom and judge Americans by their own selfish standards. Since they only deal with other countries in order to profit or benefit themsleves they think America always acts out of selfish purposes.
Unfortunately the criticism is starting to take hold in our country. Americans are asking themselves why they should spend liberally of their own money and die for ungrateful people around the world who rejoice every time a poor American gets his head slowly sawed off by a glorious religious fighter shouting "Allah Akbar." When people we died for glory in any American Soldier who dies and hope people like Saddam and Khomeini win, why should we exert ourselves to help them?
The world will be a much worse place when people like you have your way. |
You may be surprised to learn that many of the people who were killed in the Iran-Iraq war - due in part to the propping-up of Saddam by the US - were admirers of the US, and had dreams of going there one day. |
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American Visitor
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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guest said,
| Quote: | You criticized Iran's war effort as wasteful and pointless. It is also possible to criticize the US war effort in any war in the same vein, even the Second World War:
I have spoken to more than one eastern European who preferred the Germans over the Soviets.
Being adamant about defeating the Germans meant helping build up the Communists and handing half of Europe over to them - The resulting rape and slaughter of German and Polish civilians by the advancing Red Army was unprecedented. US General George S. Patton bitterly regretted the outcome of the war. What a waste of life, fighting for FDR's schemes. Later, Communism spread to Korea and Vietnam, where Americans had to lose tens of thousands of men belatedly trying to contain it. But never mind that, lets just believe it was right. |
It is clear you see nothing wrong with totalitarian regimes. Fighting to sustain and empower a totalitarian regime in my opinion is a total waste, but those who support them would clearly disagree. Hitler had his SS troops who thought his ideas of race purity and genocide were good, I don't. It is a matter of what you believe in.
The US had to fight the Nazis first, then they worked to contain Communism. I'm wondering why you don't think as highly of the Communists as you do of the Nazis? They were both brutal totalitarian regimes. Of course, the Nazis did have the final solution which some people still eulogize.
| Quote: | Americans like John Toland, who also wrote "Battle: The Story of the Bulge", also wrote about FDR's foreknowledge of the Japanese attack (see "Infamy").
Likewise, Americans like researcher Joyce Battle, helped bring the documents about Iraq-gate to light.
Criticism and evaluation, aka Democracy, are traditional American and Western values - just because someone isn't aggreeing with you doesn't mean that they hate America. |
I have heard stories about FDR's foreknowledge, but so far none I have not seen any proof. I'm not sure what your point is about Joyce Battle. The hatred of Americans is very common around the world. I do not think most Americans consider Germany or France as friends at this time.
Ansar Al-Islam has been in Iraq for several years. The fellow who sawed off David's head was treated in Baghdad for war wounds received in Afghanistan.
| Quote: | Although I understand your viewpoint, in this instance I don't think you are giving much thought to how you sound.
The argument can easily be turned around:
The United States has had good relationships with dictatorships, and has subverted democracies. I am not sure that the US is ready to respect Human rights, after learning of its support for Saddam. Maybe these are the best policies Washington can produce. Iran went into Iraq with the idealistic notion that the Iraqi's would like their own type of government, based on the common heritage it shares with Iran. Instead, the attitude from the US appears to be "How dare those middle Easterners act contrary to US interests". It appears that the US loves to prop up murderers like Saddam? You certainly know the American mind better than I. I'll have to take your word for it. You are probably correct here.
This is just to show you how you sound. What we were talking about was the US's support for Saddam - Which we seem to always get away from. |
Neither Iran or Iraq respect human rights, the US does. I think we have discussed the US involvement in the Iran Iraq war quite extensively. I'm not sure what else there is to learn. Our perceptions are clearly different because we value different things. For example, you appear to support the present regime in Iran so the sight of Rumsfield shaking hands with Saddam means much to you. To me, since I didn't support either side, it was just a handshake. I think we agree on many facts but evaluate their significance differently.
For those who value freedom and liberty, my point is that those would not exist without the US. Europe would be either Nazi or Communist and Korea would be either part of the North or would be a colony of an emperialistic Japan along with much of China. If you don't treasure freedom, then these things are mere trifles. It is hypocritical for anyone to criticize the US when our people deviate from our stardards for human rights when they themselves support regimes which have no standards whatsoever in human rights.
George Bush went into Iraq thinking the people wanted freedom and democracy. I believe this war will settle the issue once for all whether Middle Eastern culture is compatible with these things. If I'm reading you correctly, your vote is for dictatorship. I don't think the US is going to try to force Iraq into democracy, just as we didn't try to force Afghanistan into our way of life. Ultimately the decision is up to the Iraqis. On the other hand, if the US wants alliances with governments in the region, it is wrong to criticize us for dealing with totalitarian regimes if that is actually what the people want. If brutal dictatorships are the only legitimate form of government in the area, then we will have to deal with them in some way.
I'm curious, exactly what kind of government do you think is best for the Middle East? Are you looking for the return of a Caliph? This is just another form of totalitarian government?
| Quote: |
It is difficult to argue that the Iranian government "has always wanted to kill as many Americans as possible", if dozens of Americans live in Iran, right? |
Not at all. In Afghanistan they found some westerners fighting for the Taliban. That didn't mean the Taliban were not guilty of 09-11. Generally, so long as a totalitarian regime thinks an individual serves it's purposes it will tolerate them, regardless of the nationality. If Americans were willing to convert to Islam, enforce Sharia law, and give up all their freedoms I'm sure Iran would find us acceptable. Until them my statement stands. |
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American Visitor
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Guest,
I want to be sure my remarks about the futility in defending a totalitarian regime is not misunderstood to minimize the value of the lives of the young men who died. Evil old men plot wars and innocent young men die. I believe the young men who died were victims of the regime and I know the sorrow the Iranians feel over their deaths has been great. Although you and I disagree in many ways, I'm sure this is one thing upon which there should be no quarrel. |
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