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Discussion on Iran/Iraq War - US Policy, Thread#1
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I AGREE WITH MICHAEL RUBIN.. IT'S TIME THAT PAUL BREMER GOES..

THE MEN OF THE STATE DEPT HAS DONE TOO DAMAGE..

IT'S SO ABSURD TO READ ABOUT FORMER LOYAL BAATHISTS BEING GIVEN KEY ROLES IN THE NEW IRAQI ARMY..THAT'S TRUELY DISGUSTING !!

IT'S TIME TO DISMISS MR. BREMER AND CALL BACK JAY GARNER..

BREMER AND THE CPA ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE BUSH'S DOCTRINE AND RUMSFELD'S PLANS TO IMPLEMENT A TOTAL DE-BAATHIFICATION OF IRAQ.

THEY OBEY TO THE UN'S LAKHDAR BRAHIMI'S ORDERS...

IF THEY CONTINUE THIS WAY,THEY WILL REALIZE THAT IT'S TIME TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE THINGS.. THAT MEANS MORE RUMSFELD AND LESS STATE.

Self-Fulfilling Prophecy
State vs. Iraq planning.

By Michael Rubin

http://www.nationalreview.com/rubin/rubin200405030836.asp

On May 1, insurgents in Fallujah rejoiced. American Marines surrounding the city began their withdrawal without arresting the perpetrators of a brutal March 31 attack on civilian contractors. The Arab satellite network al Jazeera reported insurgents celebrating in the streets, flashing victory signs. Militants drove through the streets shouting, "Islam, it's your day!" and "We redeem Islam with our blood." Minaret-mounted loudspeakers declared "victory over the Americans." Across the region, militants pointed to the Fallujah deal as evidence that they had forced the U.S. to withdraw from Fallujah, just as they had forced a withdrawal from Mogadishu in 1993, and Beirut in 1983. Speaking on Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei said, "The occupiers have gotten themselves caught in a trap like a wolf." He added, "The ruling gang in America, with the Zionists pulling the strings, wants to swallow this rich part of the world through the greater Middle East plan, but contrary to their assumptions, the arrogant powers will choke on this mouthful."

The cause of the militant celebration was the arrival in town of General Jasim Muhammad Salih al-Dulaymi. He entered the town wearing the Iraqi Army uniform in which he had sworn his lifelong allegiance to Saddam Hussein. Outside Fallujah, Iraqis expressed shock at the choice. I spoke with a former Iraqi army officer familiar with Jasim's career. After graduating from the Police College, Jasim entered the Republican Guard. His command in Karbala coincided with the Republican Guard's suppression of the 1991 uprising. Pleased with his actions, Saddam promoted Jasim to be chief of staff of a Republican Guard division charged with the protection of Baghdad. Between 1993 and 1997, Jasim led the 38th Division of the Iraqi army in Kirkuk. During his residence there, the Baath party and Iraqi army conducted an ethnic-cleansing campaign against the city's Kurdish and Turkmen residents. Not all Iraqi military officers were Baathists but Jasim was. The Baath party is strictly hierarchical. He rose to be udhu shubaa, the third-highest rank. No one could obtain such a rank without having blood on their hands. Iraqis say he is a cousin to Khamis Sarhan al-Muhammad, number 54 on Iraq's most wanted list. Unfortunately, it appears Coalition military spokesman Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt misspoke when he said that the U.S. military had vetted Jasim and found him satisfactory.


STATE VS. PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE
Iraq did not have to be this way. Many journalists and pundits argue that had the Bush administration only given carte blanche to State Department "professionals," then the U.S. would not face the crisis in Iraq that we face today. David Phillips, a Council on Foreign Relations scholar who describes himself as an adviser to the "Future of Iraq Project," told Knight-Ridder that, "The administration's plan today is exactly what they rejected in the fall of 2002 because it wasn't ideologically compatible."


Such claims are untrue, perpetuated either for partisan gain or because those making them were not as involved as they pretend. Firstly, deputy National Security Advisor Steven Hadley and Zalmay Khalilzad, then the National Security Council's point man on the Middle East, coordinated State Department and Defense Department planning. There was seldom a day when Hadley or Khalilzad did not preside over a meeting or video teleconference to identify problems and work through solutions. The Future of Iraq project was a valuable exercise, but it was more an academic seminar than a plan. Defense Department officials participated when invited. The Iraqis who participated in the Future of Iraq program also met regularly with Defense Department and National Security Council desk officers. I know. I worked on the Pentagon's Iran and Iraq desk for several months before the war.

Ironically, it was the Defense Department and not the State Department which sought to implement the recommendations of the Future of Iraq Program's "Transition to Democracy" report. The report is worth reading. According to its preamble, "Nothing...requires the United Nations or United States to police or manage into existence the new and budding democratic institutions. That is a challenge that the people of Iraq must and will face up to on their own." The Defense Department agreed and proposed immediate sovereignty for a government combining exiles with "internals," weighted to the latter. It was a surprise when we learned the State Department opposed its own recommendations and sought to promote exiles like Adnan Pachachi known not for his opposition to Saddam Hussein during his decades in exile, but rather for his oft-stated opposition to Kuwait's right-to-exist.

We were fiercely opposed by the State Department when we wanted to plan for the future. Future of Iraq program director Tom Warrick and others stonewalled Defense Department attempts to train a Free Iraqi Force (FIF). Had the program been implemented fully, it would have helped co-opt and coordinate Iraqi Army conscripts as they switched their allegiance from Saddam Hussein's government, to that of the Iraqi people. The FIF was open to any Iraqi living outside Iraq. Many Iraqi political leaders talk a good game, but when asked to back up their words with constituents willing to put their lives on the line, fall short. Pachachi, Ayad Allawi, and Mowaffaq al-Rubaie may throw a good dinner party, but leadership goes beyond entertaining and saying what we may want to hear. As a result of stonewalling and delays, there was no critical mass of FIF leadership to channel the energies of the Iraqi army. Rather than having Iraqi forces liberate Baghdad, U.S. troops did.

While pundits blame the Pentagon for dissolution of Iraq's army, the truth of the matter is that the Iraqi military dissolved itself. Conscripts, long-abused and humiliated by the predominantly Sunni Arab officer corps, simply returned home. Mid-level officers returned to the private sector or joined the Iraq Civil Defense Corps. Senior military officers like Jasim went into hiding, fearing popular retribution for their crimes. While Iraq did not degenerate into the degree of vigilantism predicted by the Future of Iraq program, Iraqis do remain bitter about the abuses of the past. When I visited Nasiriyah in October 2003, locals said that Interior Minister Nouri Badran would be unwelcome in their city because he had hired as his secretary an officer whom residents said personally executed 30 locals following the 1991 uprising.

Our professional diplomats maintained an effete attitude toward both Iraqis and Iraqi Americans. Many Iraqi Americans gave up high-paying jobs and left families in order to serve both Iraq and the United States. They formed the Iraq Reconstruction and Development Council (IRDC). Many IRDC members were also graduates of the State Department Future of Iraq project. Unfortunately, while our diplomats say the right things in meetings, they often fail to follow through on their commitments.

The State Department opposed involving the IRDC in Iraq's reconstruction, perhaps fearing the challenge those familiar with Iraqi society might make to Foggy Bottom's long-held assumptions regarding the role of tribal sheikhs and Islamists in society. Some ambassadors even refused to speak with IRDC colleagues. State Department officials working for Jay Garner sought to stall IRDC deployment claiming lack of space at a time when beds were available. The racism and condescension toward Iraqi Americans were typified by a meeting which Garner called in early May 2003, at the request of his State Department aides. Gathering IRDC members around him, he told them that the diplomats were in charge and, as "Iraqis" they should subordinate themselves to the "Americans." The Pentagon learned of the incident and Garner apologized the following day for insinuating that Iraqi Americans were somehow less American than career diplomats. Nevertheless, the attitude pervaded. And so liberation became occupation, with sheltered American diplomats eating food flown in from Kuwait while the IRDC employees patronized local markets and ate in Baghdad restaurants. While Coalition officials lived in Baghdad's showpiece Rashid Hotel or air-conditioned trailers, many IRDC officials rented apartments in Baghdad. The office of Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) administrator L. Paul Bremer distributed brand-new SUVs to American diplomats, many of whom seldom drove outside the Green Zone, but forced IRDC head Emad Dhia to purchase a car in Baghdad out of pocket so that he and other IRDC members could inspect factories and ministry offices, talk to workers, and generally do the jobs which Arabic-speaking diplomats failed to do. More than 150 IRDC members have served their country well. They have helped calm protests in Sadr City, and have identified security and political problems in the countryside. One IRDC member in Basra made the ultimate sacrifice, bound, gagged, and executed while investigating a smuggling and corruption ring.

While first the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance and then its successor Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), reported to the Defense Department, the State Department retained effective control over the political operation. Of the first 18 senior advisers deployed to Baghdad, none were from the Defense Department; perhaps half were State Department bureau of Near Eastern affairs ambassadors or policy-planning staff members. It is true that the State Department did not initially deploy Warrick (although he has now been in Baghdad for a couple months). This had less to do with policy, and was rather due to a series of interactions with Iraqis which superiors deemed unprofessional. Regardless, the Future of Iraq program was larger than one person. There was no impediment to implementation of the State Department plan had the State Department chosen to do so. Policy is personnel.


ISLAMISTS, ARAB NATIONALISTS & TRIBAL LEADERS
Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Ryan Crocker became both Garner and Bremer's governance director. He handpicked the political team, staffing it almost exclusively with career Near Eastern Affairs diplomats and members of the Policy Planning Staff. I have worked on the Iraqi issue for several years, and knew many of the diplomats and analysts from de-briefings following the academic year I spent teaching in Iraqi Kurdistan. Few supported Bush administration policy. In a seminar I attended before joining government, one U.S. diplomat spoke about the fallacy of regime change in Iraq. Several diplomats openly disparaged President Bush. One high-ranking career diplomat spoke of his affection for Howard Dean. I was surprised to see that a particular British analyst had joined the governance group. Shortly before the September 11, 2001,terror attacks, he had argued that any Saddam replacement would be "as illegitimate as Israel." Rather than promote democrats and liberals, the Crocker team sought to stack the Governing Council with Islamists, Arab nationalists, and tribal leaders; they largely succeeded.


It was Bremer, his deputy Clay McManaway, and Crocker — not the Pentagon — who cast aside the "Transition to Democracy" report. The Future of Iraq program report states, for example, that "abuse of power by one regime after another since 1958 has resulted in the practice of 'legislation through decree', the tendency to subvert constitutionalism by way of a flurry of proclamations, decrees and laws which ultimately serve the purpose of strengthening autocratic politics." This is exactly what Bremer began to do, as the decrees listed on the CPA website demonstrate.

Bremer not only undermined the Governing Council, but he also emboldened Islamists. By brandishing his veto power, he removed accountability from Council members. Islamists could promise their constituents the world and blame Bremer for their inability to fulfill promises. Dawa-party chairman Ibrahim Jaafari became adept at this. Iraqis describe Jaafari as a politician who advocates theocracy, accepts money from Iran, and seeks to marginalize the political and social role of Iraq's women. The recent State Department decision to limit Iraq's sovereignty, by diminishing accountability, will only bolster the most intolerant elements of Iraqi society. U.S. diplomats, though, see Jaafari as a Western-educated doctor, and so, by definition, a democrat. It is the same failed logic that cursed Haiti with François "Papa Doc" Duvalier and which apologists use in advocating engagement with Syrian dictator Bashir Assad. The U.S. does not need another Syria or Iran.

The State Department's war against Iraqi democracy is long, and often goes untold as reporters trade objectivity for access to colorful "unnamed senior State Department officials." There is a history of making the wrong decisions. The U.S. military's civil-affairs units generally did a stellar job of setting up provincial and town councils. These councils became the locals' receptacle for complaints about everything from property restitution to decrepit infrastructure to the failure to implement de-Baathification. But Bremer's office refused to give local councils budgetary authority to address their constituent's concerns. In August, a senior ambassador in Bremer's office suggested that the CPA would not implement the near unanimous Iraqi desire for fiscal federalism because it might complicate planning for the October 2003 international donor's conference in Madrid. Rather than reverse the state-centered political and economic policy as advised by the Future of Iraq program, Bremer's office chose to reinforce the failures of Saddam's socialist model. Senior ambassadors cast aside long-term U.S. policy goals for short-term expediency. It is a pattern CPA often repeats.

The situation in Iraq is deteriorating. The reasons are simple. Instead of promoting Iraqi sovereignty, Foggy Bottom has for more than a year sought to limit it. Rather than put an Iraqi face on Iraq's liberation, Bremer's team has worked to marginalize Iraqi voices. The "Who We Are" section of the CPA website is illustrative. Rather than promote Iraqi self-governance, the CPA dedicates more than half the space to Bremer's biography and photograph.

The State Department, CENTCOM, and CIA argument that only a strongman or benign autocrat can govern Iraq creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Iraqi Shia and Kurds together represent three quarters of Iraq's population. If the Kurds see CPA as promoting Sunni Arab resurgence, they will pursue full independence. The Shia will seek protection with Iranian-backed movements. The Shi'a may have welcomed liberation, but they remain scarred by our 1991 abandonment of them. Tribal sheikhs can provide no solution since most go to the highest bidder.

In October 2002, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said, "We do have a saying in America: If you're in a hole, stop digging." Many CPA policies have failed. It would be a tragedy for Iraqi democrats and Arab liberals if, in response to an anti-democratic challenge, the U.S. re-doubled its efforts to pursue the same "realist" policies which supported Saddam's rise to power and rewarded terrorism. It is time to be serious about democracy. Presidential pronouncements are not enough if the State Department remains hostile to their implementation.

— Michael Rubin, a former Coalition Provisional Authority officer, is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq25.pdf

An entire section of blocked out text from this document:

5. Please present the following points in appropriate manner to Foreign minister Tareq Aziz:

--As you are aware, the USG is very concerned with the present overall situation in Southwest Asia. We strongly support a negotiated settlement.

--It is thus in a constructive spirit that we now raise with you an issue of great sensitivity and importance to the USG, namely, prohibited us of lethal chemical weapons.

-- We raise the issue now <b>neither to enter into a confrontational exchange with you, nor to lend support to the views of others</b>; but rather because it is a long-standing policy of the U.S. to oppose use of lethal CW.

-- We also raise the matter now <b>because we believe continued Iraqi use of CW will play into the hands of those who would wish to escalate tensions in the region, as well as constrain the ability of the USG to play a helpful role in the region</b>.

-- We note that Iraq long ago acceded to the 1925 Geneva protocol banning the use of CW. We believe Iraq's scrupulous adherence to that protocol is important to avoid dangerous escalation of the war. To maintain the hope of bringing Iran to the negotiating table, and to <b>avoid providing Iran with a potent propaganda weapon against Iraq</b>.

-- We hope you will receive our representation in the spirit it is intended. YY

This is from the same State Department document.

Note the friendly advice given to Iraq about the need "to avoid providing Iran with a potent propaganda weapon against Iraq".

Some years later, the U.S. did not avoid providing itself with the same potent propaganda weapon.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest,

The US was trying not to tip the balance towards Iran to the place that Khomeine could replace Saddam with an cleric of his choice and set up another theocracy. I believe they were correct.

After Iraq invaded Kuwait which was closer to an actual ally, the US considered Saddam a rouge. When he then tried to assassinate George Bush senior, Americans realized there was to limit to Sadddam's ambitions. Since Saddam had broken all his agreements made at the end of the first Gulf War and was a brutal dictator, we had every right to go in and finish the job. Whether that was a smart move is a different matter.

I personally had great doubts about the war before hand because I don't think the people in that part of the world are prepared for democracy. So far the experience in Iraq seems to confirm my prewar opinions, but I hope I'm wrong.
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Liberty Now !



Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 521

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully in future the western politicians will not be so desperate as to trust some other madman with power. And hopefully we will not see the likes of Saddam or Khomeini in future.

This whole viscous circle of Mad Fascist Dictators just got to end.
The price for the entire world, for Humanity, the future of the Globe and the next generations will be too if more of these sadistic basterds come to power anywhere in the world.


Seems to me the best way to ensure the security of the world, is TRANSPARENCY in World Politics. It's the only way out.

Right now there are several layers of power at the play globally. At one level there are the politicians as the Public Front. Government as the second broader layer, then there is the Intelligence which is much more powerful in some case when ABUSED by Hidden Wars and behind the scene plots! There are also the web of Thugs and Mafia recruited for the Dirty Works of governments also part of the Hidden War between world powers!

As long as Global Politics and Global Economy is so FOGGY or DIRTY we are not going to see any sign of Global Peace and Prosperity.

Transparency in both case is the only way to achieve Global Stability.


Those Political or Economic Powers who DO NOT WANT or can not afford TRANSPARENCY are exactly those BEHIND THE SCENE OF HIDDEN DIRTY WARS!

Go figure.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Visitor wrote:
Guest,
The US was trying not to tip the balance towards Iran to the place that Khomeine could replace Saddam with an cleric of his choice and set up another theocracy. I believe they were correct.


My understanding is that political expediency and moral considerations are mutually exclusive. You can't argue that the ends justify the means, while saying that some acts are universally wrong.

If you have separate standards for the US Gov vs. its "enemies", then you can expect others to also have separate standards.

American Visitor wrote:

After Iraq invaded Kuwait which was closer to an actual ally, the US considered Saddam a rouge. When he then tried to assassinate George Bush senior, Americans realized there was to limit to Sadddam's ambitions. Since Saddam had broken all his agreements made at the end of the first Gulf War and was a brutal dictator, we had every right to go in and finish the job. Whether that was a smart move is a different matter.


Once again, you invoke expediency. Isn't there some inconsistency in approving of US actions on that basis, but calling others evil for doing the same thing?

Note: Kuwait also helped Saddam. If Kuwait was America's ally, then it generally does what is acceptable to the US government, correct?
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest

You wrote,
Quote:
"My understanding is that political expediency and moral considerations are mutually exclusive. You can't argue that the ends justify the means, while saying that some acts are universally wrong.
If you have separate standards for the US Gov vs. its "enemies", then you can expect others to also have separate standards."


I personally don't see how you can separate morals from "political expediency." People and nations are often faced with difficult situations and have to make decisions between two highly undesireable alternatives. The true test of morality is how you deal with these choices.

In the Iran-Iraq war two truely evil regimes were at war. There were no good choices. Trying to stay neutral was probably the best we could do although at some point it became necessary to become involved to a limited extent. To me it seems our leaders did the best anyone could have done under the circumstances, I don't believe they violated any of our standards. How would you have done things differently?

Quote:
Once again, you invoke expediency. Isn't there some inconsistency in approving of US actions on that basis, but calling others evil for doing the same thing?


I'm not sure President Bush was wise in getting us involved in Iraq. He thought he was liberating the Iraqi people from a cruel dictator, perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps Saddam was the best leader Iraq is capable of producing at the present time. Whether his actions would be considered "evil," I don't know. I know Vietnam invaded Cambodia when Pol Pot was committing genocide and I don't remember anyone calling that evil. We fought Serbia to protect the Muslims and that was not considered wrong. It could be argued that human rights at times are more important than soverign rights.

Quote:
Note: Kuwait also helped Saddam. If Kuwait was America's ally, then it generally does what is acceptable to the US government, correct?


We don't control the actions of our allies. If we did, they wouldn't be allies, they would be puppets or colonies. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel and other countries who we consider allies, each must decide for themselves how to handle different situations. So long as they don't operate with the intention of damaging our interests they are allies. Totalitarian regimes such Saudi Arabia aren't truely friends since their actions are often at odds with our values of human freedom and democracy.

[/quote]
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Visitor wrote:
Guest

You wrote,
Quote:
"My understanding is that political expediency and moral considerations are mutually exclusive. You can't argue that the ends justify the means, while saying that some acts are universally wrong.
If you have separate standards for the US Gov vs. its "enemies", then you can expect others to also have separate standards."


I personally don't see how you can separate morals from "political expediency." People and nations are often faced with difficult situations and have to make decisions between two highly undesireable alternatives. The true test of morality is how you deal with these choices.


Al Capone invoked "Necessity" to describe his actions. It can be a useful defense, if you are guilty.

American Visitor wrote:

In the Iran-Iraq war two truely evil regimes were at war. There were no good choices. Trying to stay neutral was probably the best we could do although at some point it became necessary to become involved to a limited extent.


Iranians were defending their country against an invader. News of the atrocities from the border cities helped mobilize the population. Iran's regime wasn't even fully stabilized, nor had it yet assumed its later character, when Ba'athist Iraq started the war.

American Visitor wrote:

To me it seems our leaders did the best anyone could have done under the circumstances, I don't believe they violated any of our standards. How would you have done things differently?


That is a good question. However, it should be looked at both ways: As an American, what would YOU have done differently than Iran's leaders? Also, it is probably a good idea to find out more, before answering.


American Visitor wrote:

Quote:
Once again, you invoke expediency. Isn't there some inconsistency in approving of US actions on that basis, but calling others evil for doing the same thing?


I'm not sure President Bush was wise in getting us involved in Iraq. He thought he was liberating the Iraqi people from a cruel dictator, perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps Saddam was the best leader Iraq is capable of producing at the present time. Whether his actions would be considered "evil," I don't know. I know Vietnam invaded Cambodia when Pol Pot was committing genocide and I don't remember anyone calling that evil. We fought Serbia to protect the Muslims and that was not considered wrong. It could be argued that human rights at times are more important than soverign rights.


Isn't it ridiculous to not admit a mistake or inconsistency in supporting Saddam while he commited war crimes, and later overthrowing him because of those same actions?
American Visitor wrote:

Quote:
Note: Kuwait also helped Saddam. If Kuwait was America's ally, then it generally does what is acceptable to the US government, correct?


We don't control the actions of our allies. If we did, they wouldn't be allies, they would be puppets or colonies. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel and other countries who we consider allies, each must decide for themselves how to handle different situations. So long as they don't operate with the intention of damaging our interests they are allies. Totalitarian regimes such Saudi Arabia aren't truely friends since their actions are often at odds with our values of human freedom and democracy.

[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. The US government can influence the actions of governments like Kuwait. Also, what about the instances where the US government has overthrown governments (some of them democracies) or withdrawn support from them at crucial moments?
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an interesting excerpt from the book, "Iran Iraq War in the Air" (Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop)

"The Commerce Department approved 771 separate expeort licenses for the sale of so called "dual use" technologies to Iraq.382 They included 71 licenses for direct sales to various Iraqi military bases and nuclear research facilities. Initially, Iraq was able to buy computers that could control air defenses, heavy duty trucks that could carry troops, 30 Hughes 300C training helicopters (a further improved derivative of Model 300, offering a 45% increase in payload), and almost the same number of Hughes 500D/530Fs, as well as 45 Bell 214ST transport helicopters-originally designed for Iran-during 1985-88, ostensibly for the civilian Ministry of Communications and Transport. <b>Throughout the bitter war, Iranian forces were to face U.S.-built helicopters-supposed to be used for spraying crops with pesticides, but strangely enough, painted in desert camouflage before delivery-on the battlefield</b>". (p.229)

For documents that refer to these helicopters, see:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Note- The book is non-political and deals with the Air War. A friend of mine, who happens to support Reza Pahlavi, has asked me to get it for him.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest,


Quote:
Al Capone invoked "Necessity" to describe his actions. It can be a useful defense, if you are guilty.


I like your Al Capone reference. I'm not sure how it applies, but it is good. Laughing

Quote:
Iranians were defending their country against an invader. News of the atrocities from the border cities helped mobilize the population. Iran's regime wasn't even fully stabilized, nor had it yet assumed its later character, when Ba'athist Iraq started the war.


True enough, but the regime was and is evil.

Quote:

Isn't it ridiculous to not admit a mistake or inconsistency in supporting Saddam while he commited war crimes, and later overthrowing him because of those same actions?


Actually we were for the most part neutral during the Iran Iraq war. From our perspective both sides were equally evil. When Saddam invaded Kuwait he crossed the line since Kuwait was an ally. Trying to blow up George Bush Sr. didn't help. Also the fact that up to the time of the invasion Saddam was regularly firing on US planes patrolling the no fly zone also had something to do with it. If you don't want to get into a war with another country, it is best not to shoot at their planes.


Quote:
I respectfully disagree. The US government can influence the actions of governments like Kuwait. Also, what about the instances where the US government has overthrown governments (some of them democracies) or withdrawn support from them at crucial moments?


You don't have much respect for our allies do you? Laughing As far back as I can remember, our allies don't seem to mind criticizing us. Listen to the harsh rheteric comming from France and Germany and South Korea today. The US usually doesn't try to force other countries to do what we want or even to pretend to agree with us.

I believe I understand your strong feelings about the Iran-Iraq war. You probably lost friends and loved ones and that is truely a tragedy. I'm sorry about that. However, I don't buy the idea that Iran was fighting a defensive war the whole time. I believe Saddam was ready to quit about 5 years before the end but Khomeini kept the war going because he wanted to overthrow Saddam and replace him with a Mullah. The war seems to have changed to a border dispute to a war of attrition by Iran.

Quote:
"The Commerce Department approved 771 separate expeort licenses for the sale of so called "dual use" technologies to Iraq.382 They included 71 licenses for direct sales to various Iraqi military bases and nuclear research facilities. Initially, Iraq was able to buy computers that could control air defenses, heavy duty trucks that could carry troops, 30 Hughes 300C training helicopters (a further improved derivative of Model 300, offering a 45% increase in payload), and almost the same number of Hughes 500D/530Fs, as well as 45 Bell 214ST transport helicopters-originally designed for Iran-during 1985-88, ostensibly for the civilian Ministry of Communications and Transport. Throughout the bitter war, Iranian forces were to face U.S.-built helicopters-supposed to be used for spraying crops with pesticides, but strangely enough, painted in desert camouflage before delivery-on the battlefield". (p.229)


I believe your source is probably accurate. I don't believe this amounts to heavy support. This support has to be balanced against the weapons sold to Iran in the Iran-Contra scandal. I imagine our support to Iran was just as damaging to Iraq.

I'm still interested why you are so angry at the US and don't care about the much heavier support Iraq received from other countries? After all, Iran had made it clear they were our enemies and wanted to do us as much harm as possible.
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Visitor wrote:
Guest,


Quote:
Al Capone invoked "Necessity" to describe his actions. It can be a useful defense, if you are guilty.


I like your Al Capone reference. I'm not sure how it applies, but it is good. Laughing


Saddam will probably follow (US) suit, and use it, too.

American Visitor wrote:


Quote:
Iranians were defending their country against an invader. News of the atrocities from the border cities helped mobilize the population. Iran's regime wasn't even fully stabilized, nor had it yet assumed its later character, when Ba'athist Iraq started the war.


True enough, but the regime was and is evil.

I think you are calling the regime evil because it is anti-American. If it was exactly the same as it is today, but not anti-American, I doubt that you would call it evil.
American Visitor wrote:

Quote:

Isn't it ridiculous to not admit a mistake or inconsistency in supporting Saddam while he commited war crimes, and later overthrowing him because of those same actions?


Actually we were for the most part neutral during the Iran Iraq war. From our perspective both sides were equally evil. When Saddam invaded Kuwait he crossed the line since Kuwait was an ally. Trying to blow up George Bush Sr. didn't help. Also the fact that up to the time of the invasion Saddam was regularly firing on US planes patrolling the no fly zone also had something to do with it. If you don't want to get into a war with another country, it is best not to shoot at their planes.


Actually you didn't answer the question.

The US intelligence and planning assistance allowed the highly centralized Iraqi military to start winning battles.

Quote:
I respectfully disagree. The US government can influence the actions of governments like Kuwait. Also, what about the instances where the US government has overthrown governments (some of them democracies) or withdrawn support from them at crucial moments?

American Visitor wrote:

You don't have much respect for our allies do you? Laughing As far back as I can remember, our allies don't seem to mind criticizing us. Listen to the harsh rheteric comming from France and Germany and South Korea today. The US usually doesn't try to force other countries to do what we want or even to pretend to agree with us.


Talk is cheap. Has Germany denied the US access to its bases there? Also, France and Germany are major industrial powers, and are part of Western civilization. Kuwait seems to be a parasite with oil, and could probably never survive on its own.
American Visitor wrote:

I believe I understand your strong feelings about the Iran-Iraq war. You probably lost friends and loved ones and that is truely a tragedy. I'm sorry about that. However, I don't buy the idea that Iran was fighting a defensive war the whole time. I believe Saddam was ready to quit about 5 years before the end but Khomeini kept the war going because he wanted to overthrow Saddam and replace him with a Mullah. The war seems to have changed to a border dispute to a war of attrition by Iran.


The United States was also not fighting a defensive war when it invaded Germany. Nor is was it doing that when it invaded Iraq.

Iran, on the other hand, was actually invaded by Iraq.

If Iran had no business invading Iraq, what are the Americans doing there?

American Visitor wrote:

Quote:
"The Commerce Department approved 771 separate expeort licenses for the sale of so called "dual use" technologies to Iraq.382 They included 71 licenses for direct sales to various Iraqi military bases and nuclear research facilities. Initially, Iraq was able to buy computers that could control air defenses, heavy duty trucks that could carry troops, 30 Hughes 300C training helicopters (a further improved derivative of Model 300, offering a 45% increase in payload), and almost the same number of Hughes 500D/530Fs, as well as 45 Bell 214ST transport helicopters-originally designed for Iran-during 1985-88, ostensibly for the civilian Ministry of Communications and Transport. Throughout the bitter war, Iranian forces were to face U.S.-built helicopters-supposed to be used for spraying crops with pesticides, but strangely enough, painted in desert camouflage before delivery-on the battlefield". (p.229)


I believe your source is probably accurate. I don't believe this amounts to heavy support. This support has to be balanced against the weapons sold to Iran in the Iran-Contra scandal. I imagine our support to Iran was just as damaging to Iraq.


The support given to Iran actually appears to be small, compared to that given to Iraq. Let's first look at what was provided.

American Visitor wrote:

I'm still interested why you are so angry at the US and don't care about the much heavier support Iraq received from other countries? After all, Iran had made it clear they were our enemies and wanted to do us as much harm as possible.


Not so angry against the US. The men in power are not the country.

Much of the anti-American rhetoric in Tehran was also not so serious, compared to anti-Iranian talk that I've heard from Americans.

But as intended, American support helped Saddam survive - and kill Iranians.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest,

Quote:
I think you are calling the regime evil because it is anti-American. If it was exactly the same as it is today, but not anti-American, I doubt that you would call it evil.


Good question, however I believe it is evil because it is a totalitarian regime which has no respect for human rights. I have no use for "theocratic" governments which use God as a cloak to cover their crimes against humanity.


Quote:
Actually you didn't answer the question.

The US intelligence and planning assistance allowed the highly centralized Iraqi military to start winning battles.


I guess I don't understand the question. The US doesn't try to overthrow every regime which commits war crimes. Unfortunately there are too many thugs and dictators in the world to rectify every situation. Sudan is a good example of a country which is in the process of committing genocide but we haven't intervened. There were a number of reasons the US finally did go to war with Saddam as I explained all starting with the invasion of Kuwait.

Quote:
Talk is cheap. Has Germany denied the US access to its bases there? Also, France and Germany are major industrial powers, and are part of Western civilization. Kuwait seems to be a parasite with oil, and could probably never survive on its own.


You really don't think much of our allies! Laughing

Quote:
The United States was also not fighting a defensive war when it invaded Germany. Nor is was it doing that when it invaded Iraq.

Iran, on the other hand, was actually invaded by Iraq.

If Iran had no business invading Iraq, what are the Americans doing there?


I'm not saying you had no business invading Iraq, I'm saying wars of that type cost lives. The war with Iraq could have been settled years sooner in Iran's favor if Khomeini had not decided to go for Saddam's overthrow. I don't agree with Iran's cause so to me it seems a big waste of human life fighting for a totalitarian regime, but you are entitled to your opinion.

We lost many thousands of soldiers in our war with Germany fighting for what we believe in. In WWII we were attacked by the Japanese who were allies of Germany. In the present war our airplanes were repeatedly attacked by Saddam and our twin towers were attacked by the Islamists. The United States didn't start either war.

Quote:
Not so angry against the US. The men in power are not the country.

Much of the anti-American rhetoric in Tehran was also not so serious, compared to anti-Iranian talk that I've heard from Americans.

But as intended, American support helped Saddam survive - and kill Iranians
.

I agree, the US didn't want Saddam to be overthrown and replaced by a Mullah. The primary goal was to bring about peace as soon as possible not to see more people killed. I believe the Iranian government is an outlaw government which has always wanted to kill as many Americans as possible. I have no doubt they are harboring and training terrorists to blow up our cities today.
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Visitor wrote:
guest,

Quote:
I think you are calling the regime evil because it is anti-American. If it was exactly the same as it is today, but not anti-American, I doubt that you would call it evil.


Good question, however I believe it is evil because it is a totalitarian regime which has no respect for human rights. I have no use for "theocratic" governments which use God as a cloak to cover their crimes against humanity.


What about the US' cordial relationship with Saddam Hussein, while he committed his worst war crimes (to quote Bush jr, "If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning")? And the pretense of attacking because Saddam is evil, while not minding to prop up the same very same evil out of "necessity"?

American Visitor wrote:

Quote:
Actually you didn't answer the question.

The US intelligence and planning assistance allowed the highly centralized Iraqi military to start winning battles.


I guess I don't understand the question.
The US doesn't try to overthrow every regime which commits war crimes. Unfortunately there are too many thugs and dictators in the world to rectify every situation. Sudan is a good example of a country which is in the process of committing genocide but we haven't intervened. There were a number of reasons the US finally did go to war with Saddam as I explained all starting with the invasion of Kuwait.


So here is the question again:

Isn't it ridiculous to not admit a mistake or inconsistency in supporting Saddam while he commited war crimes, and his accomplices later seeking justification to overthrow him based on those same crimes?
American Visitor wrote:

Quote:
Talk is cheap. Has Germany denied the US access to its bases there? Also, France and Germany are major industrial powers, and are part of Western civilization. Kuwait seems to be a parasite with oil, and could probably never survive on its own.


You really don't think much of our allies! Laughing


For many Iranians, Kuwait's support for Iraq probably shouldn't be a laughing matter. Thanks to US' "ally" who let Iraq use its facilities at Bubyan island, dead Iranians - fathers, husbands and sons - were washing up on the shores of Khorabdollah.

Smiling Kuwaiti photographers, given the tour of the battlefield by their friends, clicked away at dead and captured Iranian soldiers. They were absolutely delighted over Saddam's bloody accomplishments. Their newspapers dismissed Saddams war crimes as "lies". They beamed defeatist propaganda made palatable with love songs - something a sadist would think of - at Iranians who were facing the prospect of death. Not to mention their financial support for "brother" Saddam.

They also helped Iraq sell its oil... with US Gov. help.

Later, honor among corrupt rulers failed, and Saddam invaded.

As the ancient Persian saying goes: "Az mast, ke bar mast..."

Quote:
The United States was also not fighting a defensive war when it invaded Germany. Nor is was it doing that when it invaded Iraq.

Iran, on the other hand, was actually invaded by Iraq.

If Iran had no business invading Iraq, what are the Americans doing there?


American Visitor wrote:
I'm not saying you had no business invading Iraq, I'm saying wars of that type cost lives. The war with Iraq could have been settled years sooner in Iran's favor if Khomeini had not decided to go for Saddam's overthrow. I don't agree with Iran's cause so to me it seems a big waste of human life fighting for a totalitarian regime, but you are entitled to your opinion.


If someone can't explore the possibility that their government did something wrong, doesn't that resemble someone who supports a theocracy?

A big waste of human life fighting for a totalitarian regime - again, what about South Vietnam?

American Visitor wrote:
We lost many thousands of soldiers in our war with Germany fighting for what we believe in. In WWII we were attacked by the Japanese who were allies of Germany. In the present war our airplanes were repeatedly attacked by Saddam and our twin towers were attacked by the Islamists. The United States didn't start either war.


I've read that America was aiding Britain before Germany actually declared war.

Also, if you noticed, US warplanes were over Iraqi airspace when they were attacked.

By the way, what do "Islamists" have to do with Saddam?
Quote:
Not so angry against the US. The men in power are not the country.

Much of the anti-American rhetoric in Tehran was also not so serious, compared to anti-Iranian talk that I've heard from Americans.
American Visitor wrote:

But as intended, American support helped Saddam survive - and kill Iranians
.

I agree, the US didn't want Saddam to be overthrown and replaced by a Mullah. The primary goal was to bring about peace as soon as possible not to see more people killed.


Did the US, supposedly a model Democracy, bother to consult with the people of the region about what they wanted?

Those who experienced Saddam first hand can perhaps tell you what they would have preferred.

American Visitor wrote:

I believe the Iranian government is an outlaw government which has always wanted to kill as many Americans as possible. I have no doubt they are harboring and training terrorists to blow up our cities today.


It is easy to have no doubts about something, if you don't think critically. Are you aware that dozens of Americans have been living in Iran during the whole time the regime existed? Smile
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest said,

Quote:

What about the US' cordial relationship with Saddam Hussein, while he committed his worst war crimes (to quote Bush jr, "If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning")? And the pretense of attacking because Saddam is evil, while not minding to prop up the same very same evil out of "necessity"?


I don't believe we ever had cordial relationship with Saddam. Saddam was evil and Khomeini was evil. The question was whether we wanted another copy of Khomeini in Iraq. Actually the US was neutral throughout most of the war.

Quote:
Isn't it ridiculous to not admit a mistake or inconsistency in supporting Saddam while he commited war crimes, and his accomplices later seeking justification to overthrow him based on those same crimes?


I think Saddam had committed many more crimes by the time we went to war with him. If he had not attacked Kuwait, there would have been no further mention about his war crimes except condemnation in the UN. The slaughter of 300,000 or so Shia also happened after the Iran Iraq war ended.

For many Iranians, Kuwait's support for Iraq probably shouldn't be a laughing matter. Thanks to US' "ally" who let Iraq use its facilities at Bubyan island, dead Iranians - fathers, husbands and sons - were washing up on the shores of Khorabdollah.

Quote:
Smiling Kuwaiti photographers, given the tour of the battlefield by their friends, clicked away at dead and captured Iranian soldiers. They were absolutely delighted over Saddam's bloody accomplishments. Their newspapers dismissed Saddams war crimes as "lies". They beamed defeatist propaganda made palatable with love songs - something a sadist would think of - at Iranians who were facing the prospect of death. Not to mention their financial support for "brother" Saddam
.

I suppose you are correct about this but that was not reported in America and I was not aware of it. At that time we thought Saudi Arabia was our good ally and went along with what they wanted. Kuwait was not mentioned much.

Quote:
If someone can't explore the possibility that their government did something wrong, doesn't that resemble someone who supports a theocracy?

A big waste of human life fighting for a totalitarian regime - again, what about South Vietnam?


I'm not at all reluctant to admit it when our country does something wrong. I just don't think the Iran Iraq was was one of those cases.

The Vietnam war was also right. The Vietnamese have suffered immensley under the Communists. Some of them including relatives by marriage were so desperate to leave they took boats out to sea and endured severe deprivation and starvation to try to attain their freedom. They were attacked by pirates and the women raped.

Quote:
I've read that America was aiding Britain before Germany actually declared war.

Also, if you noticed, US warplanes were over Iraqi airspace when they were attacked.

By the way, what do "Islamists" have to do with Saddam
?

Actually Japan was the country that attacked us and they thought they were justified because we didn't support their agression in China. But we won't worry about that, lets just hate America.

The US was patrolling the no fly zone when they were shot at. Saddam had made agreements to save his sorry ass at the end of the Gulf war and as soon as he thought it was safe, he broke them.

The poor fellow who had his head slowly sawed off found out what Islamists had to do with Saddam.

Quote:

Did the US, supposedly a model Democracy, bother to consult with the people of the region about what they wanted?

Those who experienced Saddam first hand can perhaps tell you what they would have preferred.


The US is "supposedly" a model Democracy? Your prejedict is obvious.

Your question about what the people in the region wanted is a good one. I personally didn't support the war because I don't think people in the region are ready for true freedom with human rights. I think Saddam was probably the best Iraq could produce. Bush went into this with the mistaken belief that Iraqis would love to live in a free democratic country just as much as we do. Perhaps after this our country will respect the dictatorships over there more.


Quote:
It is easy to have no doubts about something, if you don't think critically. Are you aware that dozens of Americans have been living in Iran during the whole time the regime existed?


Now you have hurt my feelings telling me I can't think critically. Laughing I'm sure you are correct that there are dozens of Americans in Iraq, but I don't understand the importance of that. Perhaps if I could think more critically, I'd understand.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I didn't log in my reply properly. I'm repeating it under my user name.

Guest said,

Quote:

What about the US' cordial relationship with Saddam Hussein, while he committed his worst war crimes (to quote Bush jr, "If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning")? And the pretense of attacking because Saddam is evil, while not minding to prop up the same very same evil out of "necessity"?


I don't believe we ever had cordial relationship with Saddam. Saddam was evil and Khomeini was evil. The question was whether we wanted another copy of Khomeini in Iraq. Actually the US was neutral throughout most of the war.

Quote:
Isn't it ridiculous to not admit a mistake or inconsistency in supporting Saddam while he commited war crimes, and his accomplices later seeking justification to overthrow him based on those same crimes?


I think Saddam had committed many more crimes by the time we went to war with him. If he had not attacked Kuwait, there would have been no further mention about his war crimes except condemnation in the UN. The slaughter of 300,000 or so Shia also happened after the Iran Iraq war ended.

Quote:
For many Iranians, Kuwait's support for Iraq probably shouldn't be a laughing matter. Thanks to US' "ally" who let Iraq use its facilities at Bubyan island, dead Iranians - fathers, husbands and sons - were washing up on the shores of Khorabdollah.

Smiling Kuwaiti photographers, given the tour of the battlefield by their friends, clicked away at dead and captured Iranian soldiers. They were absolutely delighted over Saddam's bloody accomplishments. Their newspapers dismissed Saddams war crimes as "lies". They beamed defeatist propaganda made palatable with love songs - something a sadist would think of - at Iranians who were facing the prospect of death. Not to mention their financial support for "brother" Saddam
.

I suppose you are correct about this but that was not reported in America and I was not aware of it. At that time we thought Saudi Arabia was our good ally and went along with what they wanted. Kuwait was not mentioned much.

Quote:
If someone can't explore the possibility that their government did something wrong, doesn't that resemble someone who supports a theocracy? A big waste of human life fighting for a totalitarian regime - again, what about South Vietnam?


I'm not at all reluctant to admit it when our country does something wrong. I just don't think the Iran Iraq was was one of those cases.

The Vietnam war was also right, unfortunately the American people grew tired of sacrificing our lives for other people's freedom. Because of that the Vietnamese have suffered immensley under the Communists. Some of them including my relatives by marriage were so desperate to leave they took boats out to sea and endured severe deprivation and starvation to try to attain their freedom. They were attacked by pirates and the women gang raped. Their desire for freedom was so great they endured all this.

Quote:
Quote:
I've read that America was aiding Britain before Germany actually declared war.

Also, if you noticed, US warplanes were over Iraqi airspace when they were attacked.

By the way, what do "Islamists" have to do with Saddam?


Actually Japan was the country that attacked us and they thought they were justified because we didn't support their agression in China. But we won't worry about that, lets just hate America.

The US was patrolling the no fly zone when they were shot at. Saddam had made agreements to save his sorry ass at the end of the Gulf war and as soon as he thought it was safe, he broke them.

The poor fellow who had his head slowly sawed off found out what Islamists had to do with Saddam.

Quote:

Quote:
Did the US, supposedly a model Democracy, bother to consult with the people of the region about what they wanted?

Those who experienced Saddam first hand can perhaps tell you what they would have preferred.


The US is "supposedly" a model Democracy? Your prejedice is obvious.

Your question about what the people in the region wanted is a good one. I personally didn't support the war fully because I'm not sure people in the region are ready for true freedom with human rights. I think Saddam was possibly the best Iraq could produce. Bush went into this with the mistaken belief that Iraqis would love to live in a free democratic country just as much as we do. Instead the attitude appears to be "how dare those terrible Americans try to impose their form of government on us."
Perhaps after this the United States will respect the dictatorships over there more. It appears people in the Middle East love to be governed by dictators? You certainly know the Middle Eastern mind better than I. I'll have to take your word for it. You are probably correct here.

Quote:
It is easy to have no doubts about something, if you don't think critically. Are you aware that dozens of Americans have been living in Iran during the whole time the regime existed?


Now you have hurt my feelings telling me I can't think critically. Laughing I'm sure you are correct that there are dozens of Americans in Iran, but I don't understand the importance of that. Perhaps if I could think more critically, I'd understand.
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
guest said,

Quote:

What about the US' cordial relationship with Saddam Hussein, while he committed his worst war crimes (to quote Bush jr, "If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning")? And the pretense of attacking because Saddam is evil, while not minding to prop up the same very same evil out of "necessity"?


I don't believe we ever had cordial relationship with Saddam. Saddam was evil and Khomeini was evil. The question was whether we wanted another copy of Khomeini in Iraq. Actually the US was neutral throughout most of the war.


Rumsfeld and Saddam:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq31.pdf
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