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[FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great
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Azadeh_55
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 467
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 Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I completely agree. I also grew up in Iran, and I am a devout (very much) muslim. What the mullahs are teaching is NOT Islam. Azadeh is right. Religious people are always the most immoral. And this is not restricted to Islam. See the life story of ANY pope during, let's say, the Renaissance. They always cheated, stole, and bribed. I don't think banning religion is the right way to go. And Reza Shah did not "ban" religion. He was a devout muslim himself. He simply tried, as much as he could, to decrease the power of the Clerics. |
I don't mean to start a religious war here. But I am going to offer my personal opinion on why I am very much against Islam. I think most of our problems starts with our self-censorship b/c we are afraid of confronations, especially when it comes to religion. But I think it is important to talk about these things b/c they affect all of us. Here are my reasons for being against Islam (I took this post from another BB but you can go here:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html
to check the accuracy of these verses):
| Quote: | 004.089
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
005.033
The punishment of those who make mischeif against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.
005.038
As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
005.082
Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe to be The Jews and Polytheists;
002:216
War is ordained for you, though you may not like it; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
002.244
Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.
004.092
Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely.
Where is the prohibition on killing non-believers?
004.092 continued....
If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah: for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
What about the non-believers at war with you that you killed? And when is the chance for non-believing slaves to be set free? And why should anyone even own slaves???
004.076
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
004.084
Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
002.223
Your wives are as a tilth unto you (to cultivate); so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.
004.034
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear disobedience, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
024.002
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
033.060-061
Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time: Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a slaughter.
009.005
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. |
What the mullahs are doing may or may not have anything to do with the real Islam. But the real Islam is nothing to rave about either. It's about chopping off hands and feet, wife-beatings, floggings, killing pagans, bashing Jew, having slaves, discriminating against non-believers, going to war with people b/c of their disbelief in God and their personal opinions on life after death, finding and slaying pagans when the forbidden months have passed, and things of that sort.
| Quote: | | and Gil: I'm sorry that you don't like Islam. Can I ask why? |
I am going to make a guess and say that it's because Moslems tend to say the nastiest things about Jews. It's not just a few Moslems. It's lots of Muslims, a lot of the time. His feelings were probably hurt. Gil, I hope I'm not being too presumptive. I apologize.  I should say that personally I am against all religions. Whether or not Reza Shah the Great was a religious person is secondary to what a great man he was for our country. I support him and I support his policies even though he may have had religious tendencies deep down (which I loath)!!!  Perhaps Reza Shah the Great's problem was the fact that he himself was too religious and that kept him from dealing with the issue of mullahs with the force that it needed. I know Kemal Ataturk was very much against Islam and also against Islamic clerics (although he never outright banned religion). His policies seem to have gotten his country a lot further than Reza Shah's did for us.
By the way, Omar Khayam is my favourite poet. |
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Gil
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 63
Location: Far Rockaway, New York
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Sourena wrote: | | and Gil: I'm sorry that you don't like Islam. Can I ask why? |
| Azadeh_55" wrote: | | I am going to make a guess and say that it's because Moslems tend to say the nastiest things about Jews. It's not just a few Moslems. It's lots of Muslims, a lot of the time. His feelings were probably hurt. Gil, I hope I'm not being too presumptive. I apologize. |
Some verses in the Koran:
| Sura al-Tawba 9:123 wrote: | | "O Muslims, fight the non-Muslims who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness; and know that Allah is with the god-fearing." |
| Sura al-Tawba 9:29 wrote: | | "Fight against those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger, have forbidden -- such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humbled." |
| Sura al-Baqara 2:16 wrote: | | "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." |
What I dislike most about Islam is its portrayed falseness. Read the above - how can Islam claim to be a religion of peace? Like its practitioners, Islam has "two faces" - and both of them represent an anti-Freedom outlook.
Anti-Semitism is not something that causes me to dislike a religion - it causes me to dislike its adherents. Pro-Nihilism is something that causes me to dislike a religion.
Also see this site: http://fam.showsit.info/
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"Revolution in a Bottle" |
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Q
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Gil - I wonder about the Islam Press Kit that like that monster GW Bush proclaims peace when everything about the ideology is violent.
It's hard to see peace as a motive in monotheism in general.
BTW - what do you think about Douglas Rushkoff's book Nothing Sacred: The Truth About Judaism?
Has anyone else here read Irshad Manji's hot new book The Trouble with Islam.
IMO religion ain't nothin' but trouble! |
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Gil
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 63
Location: Far Rockaway, New York
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Q wrote: | Gil - I wonder about the Islam Press Kit that like that monster GW Bush proclaims peace when everything about the ideology is violent.
It's hard to see peace as a motive in monotheism in general.
BTW - what do you think about Douglas Rushkoff's book Nothing Sacred: The Truth About Judaism?
Has anyone else here read Irshad Manji's hot new book The Trouble with Islam.
IMO religion ain't nothin' but trouble! |
I can only speak for Judaism.
Jewish monotheism is part of a religion based on thought, not feeling. In Judaism, the eradication of perceived idolatries is not to be brought about by a war of weapons, but a war of ideas. Traditional Jews understand that the only way that Man has of relating to God is with his mind - and nothing else. Peace is easy for the Jew - he is a debater, not a fighter.
Douglas Rushkoff is nothing more than a modern-day hellenist, a philosophical idolator. In his universe, the world is a function of Man - God is subordinate to Man's changing whims and desires. I put him and his works in the same class as Max Dumont and his book "Jews, God, and History."
From Publishers Weekly:
"Manji's arguments would be better taken-and easier to follow-if not accompanied by an unceasing list of Islam's misdeeds. Manji often chooses the most controversial Koranic passages (rarely providing current scholarship for a more accurate reading of key verses), and her treatment of Islamic history is selective. She mistakes the negative fan mail she receives from Muslims who have seen her on television for the views of all Muslims, and lambastes those who present a sympathetic view of Islam, including the late scholar Edward Said. The writing, though energetic, is unfocused, with personal stories that are sometimes confusing. Although the book raises important points, Manji's angry tone and disjointed writing may obscure some of the valid questions she asks of Islam and Muslims."
Although I haven't read her book, Manji seems to be a common feminist. Uninteresting rhetoric is all she offers.
I think you need to learn more about religion from more traditional sources - and analyze them with your mind, not your heart.
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"Revolution in a Bottle" |
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Azadeh_55
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 467
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | how can Islam claim to be a religion of peace? |
When did Islam claim that it was a "religion of peace"? This is George W. Bush's claim.
| Quote: | | Anti-Semitism is not something that causes me to dislike a religion - it causes me to dislike its adherents. |
Fair enough.
| Quote: | | Pro-Nihilism is something that causes me to dislike a religion. |
Nihilism is different from what Islam teaches. Nihilism is an ideology that says nothing in the world has meaning and value. I think of it as an existentialist's dilemma. An existentialist can either accept that his existance has meaning or he can give up and accept that his existance (along with everything else) is meaningless and has no value. This really has nothing to do with Islamic teachings. Islamic teachings are more about cutting up people's hands and feet and floggings. |
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teddybears against evil
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 17
Location: england
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:09 am Post subject: |
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if you dont attack the religion all that will happen even if you get rid of these mullahs more will pop up
there are some great resources online although I would guess a lot of them may be censored so people in Iran wouldnt get to see them
basically mohammed was a nasty man and his personal morality makes it unlikely that he was a prophet
somehow this message needs to get out
even if you have a country blocking sites if mohammeds personal behavior became common knowledge in lets say the west it would filter through to countrys like Iran
personally I think all religion is fake but I dont like pointing this out to religous people
but as it stands islam is involved in politics so I see it as fair game
I dont think you should just call people names but for example mohammed married a 6 year old does this sound like moral behavior for a man in his 50s
he also beheaded hundreds of prisoners this doesnt sound very moral
if you are able to see it,it may be blocked in Iran faithfreedom.org
also someone seems to have put up a mirror at faithfreedom.tk for some reason too
its a good site made by a Iranian man looks at islamic theology
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Islam, this absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, is a rotting corpse which poisons our lives."
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (1881-1938 |
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American Visitor
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Everyone here seems to think religion is bad except their own. They all seem to agree the worst evil is conservative Christians. At the same time everyone seems to love the religious freedom in America.
Where do you guys think freedom in the US came from? The United States which has sacrificed many so many lives and much wealth for freedom is one of the most religious countries in the world. The dominant religion is that hated Christianity. |
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Saman
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 506
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:43 am Post subject: |
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In NO way do I believe that christianity is threat to the world. Though that seems to be the leftists favourite argument. Islam is the threat, nothinb else.
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Zoroaster's philosophy: Good thoughts, good words, good deeds.
Pāyandeh bād xāke Irān e mā! |
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redemption
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 1158
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:30 am Post subject: s |
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| Saman wrote: | | In NO way do I believe that christianity is threat to the world. Though that seems to be the leftists favourite argument. Islam is the threat, nothinb else. |
I don't believe religions are dangerious in their most basic, principled and respected forms, however they become xtremely dangerous when the evolve in the hands of selfish, barbaric, extremist, brutal, whackos...
Religion is like a weapon.. it can be used for good.. though it can also be used for bad!
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TeachESL
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 214
Location: Israel
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Some very interesting postings. Stephania: "It's what we do that counts." Very good, girl.
I, personally, am against the ban. 1. It can bring about more extremism. "You won't let me wear my hijab?? Well, I'll show you! Even though I never wore one before - NOW I WANT to wear it!!" 2. It can affect Jewish Orthodox married women who also cover their hair (with scarves, or wigs, or hats) 3. It can cause people to take their children out of the public schools and put them into medrassas where it won't be known what is being taught. But, basicaly, I'm against it because it goes against personal freedom. I understand that another person in the French government is talking about banning beards!! How far is this nonsense going to go??? Even Christian and Jewish leaders in France have come out against the ban. |
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stefania
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:38 am Post subject: |
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In France there are 6 million muslims.
And more and more still are going there.
Now, among them there are good people, seculars but also terrorists.
So, if France doesn't act, it will become and Islamic Republic and there will be a lot of suicide attacks in Europe..
Sorry, but i don't want them to do whatever they want.
They want to impose their laws and separate girls from boys ..
I agree with this ban.. This move angered the arab countries so much.
They now are wondering how France, their idol against the war on Saddam,now stands against "islam"..
It doesn't stands against islam.
It stands,at least in this issue, by the principles of De Toqueville, secularism and individual liberty,
This is the only good move France has taken..
For the rest, France sucks
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Gil
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 63
Location: Far Rockaway, New York
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Azadeh_55 wrote: | | Quote: | | how can Islam claim to be a religion of peace? |
When did Islam claim that it was a "religion of peace"? This is George W. Bush's claim. |
| Dr. Maher Hathout (advisor to the Muslim Public Affairs Council and the Islamic Center of Southern California) wrote: | | Most Americans Muslims had assumed Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks in the first place. The Muslim official said he was most offended by bin Laden's use of quotations from the Koran and Hadith, the teachings of the prophet Muhammad. "This," he said, "is pseudo-religious talk because it is misquoting and quoting out of context to justify a very evil agenda which is not only bad but also damaging to the image of the religion." |
| Imam Hossein Qazwini of the Islamic Educational Center of Orange County, California wrote: | | "Muslims in general felt the pain of September 11th, and there were Muslims that died. Second of all, Osama bin Laden represents a terrorist group, a small faction of Muslims that have a twisted and deviant interpretation of Islam that is based on terrorism, brutality and violence. Islam itself, as we believe, is a religion of peace and justice." |
It's not just Dubya's "invention."
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Pro-Nihilism is something that causes me to dislike a religion. |
Nihilism is different from what Islam teaches. Nihilism is an ideology that says nothing in the world has meaning and value. I think of it as an existentialist's dilemma. An existentialist can either accept that his existance has meaning or he can give up and accept that his existance (along with everything else) is meaningless and has no value. This really has nothing to do with Islamic teachings. Islamic teachings are more about cutting up people's hands and feet and floggings. |
Nihilism, when followed to its logical conclusion, sees nothing wrong with destroying this World, because nothing in it matters. Nihilism = Destroy everything. This is what Islam preaches, and this is what is dangerous about it.
More to come soon, but I have to go eat breakfast.
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We Won't Get Fooled Again
"Revolution in a Bottle" |
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TeachESL
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 214
Location: Israel
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Well, Stephania, I predict that it will bring about worse things than the law is trying to avoid.
After reading all the above concerning Islam - 'religion of peace or not' - I am still very confused. Why don't these people who claim that Islam is a religion of peace create an organization "Not in My Name" (yes, I know - that's the name of the organization of the anti-war in Iraq people) and say loud and clear that they disassociate themselves from those terrorists using Islam as the basis for their terrorist actions. I've bookmarked one Islamic organization that seems to be the only one like that. It's URL is
www.islamicsupremecouncil.org, based in the U.S. |
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katkin
Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Good question, teachESL. They are the only group I've found too. (There are some brave individuals as well but they seem to be unorganized.)
This discussion on hijab banning inspired me to post my own solution for France on my blog. I'd post it here if but it's a bit long...
It's a solution that involves preempting the ones who want to 'look different' as a political statement.
We Americans like preempting things.
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redemption
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 1158
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:46 pm Post subject: ddd |
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| katkin wrote: | Good question, teachESL. They are the only group I've found too. (There are some brave individuals as well but they seem to be unorganized.)
This discussion on hijab banning inspired me to post my own solution for France on my blog. I'd post it here if but it's a bit long...
It's a solution that involves preempting the ones who want to 'look different' as a political statement.
We Americans like preempting things.
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Read your post... I don't know what I feel about the issue.. I agree people should be allowed to wear a cross or wear a holy item - though when it is in your face look at me and causing serious concerns then that should be addressed..
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