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Mohamad's character
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He fulfilled 0 prophecies


I've already told you about the lunar-solar eclipse prophecy.

And, if interpreted liberally, he may the same Christ as in revelations. The sword of Ahmadiyyat has commonly been described as a pen - the Revelations jesus comes with a sword in his mouth - MOUTH can be interpreted for communication (ppl talk through mouths), and the sword imo is the pen, which is used for the Ahmadi "jihad" and for obeying things like 2:215 or whatever it was that you posted elsewhere.

Quote:
He is still a long shot from Jesus.

I don't know much about his life, so sorry, I cant say anything here. But you can probably find it on the internet somewhere.
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've already told you about the lunar-solar eclipse prophecy.


That doesn't mean very much. Many people have been born at such times. That doesn't mean they are prophets.

Quote:
And, if interpreted liberally, he may the same Christ as in revelations. The sword of Ahmadiyyat has commonly been described as a pen - the Revelations jesus comes with a sword in his mouth - MOUTH can be interpreted for communication (ppl talk through mouths), and the sword imo is the pen, which is used for the Ahmadi "jihad" and for obeying things like 2:215 or whatever it was that you posted elsewhere.


Thats a bit of a stretch. Also in Revelations when Jesus returns he will take his followers up in the rapture. We will meet him in the air and go to the place he has prepared for us. None of this happened in the late 1800s so that isnt a good match.

Quote:

I don't know much about his life, so sorry, I cant say anything here. But you can probably find it on the internet somewhere.


If you don't know much about who he was, then why are you following him? Because your parents follow him? If so, why do they follow him?
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That doesn't mean very much. Many people have been born at such times. That doesn't mean they are prophets.


Yeah, but not all of them became preachers and things.

Quote:
Also in Revelations when Jesus returns he will take his followers up in the rapture. We will meet him in the air and go to the place he has prepared for us.

Somehow, I think that's meant to be a metaphor.
Besides, the Khilafat hasnt ended yet. Maybe something will happen at the end of it.

Anyway, this may sound silly but most Ahmadis achieve a higher standard of living than other people. In India, for example, all of my relatives are all pretty religious, and theyre all successful doctors and the like, in big houses with lots of land. (the land is actually given free to homeless people, who are allowed to live there free of charge). In UK we've also got a pretty high standard of living.

Quote:
then why are you following him? Because your parents follow him? (yes)

Ok, seriously, Im 16 and have MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS to think about than why I am an ahmadi, for example, exams, getting into medical uni, passing uni, getting a job etc etc. When I get time to think about it, I will, but I doubt that'll be for a few years yet.
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah, but not all of them became preachers and things.


There needs to more specific prophecies before most muslims would except such a man. And a whole lot more on top of that before Christians and Jews would follow such a man.

Quote:

Somehow, I think that's meant to be a metaphor.
Besides, the Khilafat hasnt ended yet. Maybe something will happen at the end of it.


Why does everything have to be a metaphor? Is it so hard to believe a man that can come back from the dead at his word? If you bet against Jesus, trust me, you always lose.

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..." -Jesus

What is the Khalifat?

I know many Wiccans that are very successful too. Besides riches is not a good standard of success.

Quote:

Ok, seriously, Im 16 and have MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS to think about than why I am an ahmadi, for example, exams, getting into medical uni, passing uni, getting a job etc etc. When I get time to think about it, I will, but I doubt that'll be for a few years yet.


Isn't your eternal destiny more important than worldly achievements?
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it so hard to believe a man that can come back from the dead at his word?

Actually, yes.
Ask any doctor.

Quote:
If you bet against Jesus, trust me, you always lose.

I think John Alexander Dowie has something to say about that.
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow thats some story but proves to me even further that ahmad is not Jesus. Jesus would not say what either of them said or do what either did. Jesus would feel sorry for both of them for being to hard headed. Peter was extremely zealous for Jesus and Jesus constantly scolded him for it. Dowie falls into the same pattern of Peter. Ahmad falls into the patern as Shimon bar kokhba and Muhammed for claiming to be what they are not.
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to me its a good proof that mga is correct.
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many people have predicted the terrible death of someone and have been right. That doesn't mean they are Jesus Christ or Imam Mahdi for that matter. Jesus did much greater things than predicting peoples demise. If he came again I would bet that he would surpass all that he did the first time. If he raised himself up from the dead the first time he would raise LOTS of people next time. If he forgave the sinners the first time he would destroy sin altogether the second time. See my point? He wouldn't come a second time and do less (or nothing at all) of what he did the first time.

Just because one (I hesitate to call him) christian (a crazy one at that from what I've read of this guy) makes lots of claims and gets proved wrong doesn't mean he represents Christianity as a whole. I guarrantee you back in 1903 most christians probably disliked this guy as he was hateful of muslims and being hateful of anyone is cause for reprimand. Even if every muslim on earth was a christian's enemy Jesus says to love your enemy. If he violates this extremely basic tenet of christianity then I say he is not a follower of Christ.

If MGA was correct then Ahmadiyya's would be the most popular religion on earth right now. Everyone on earth would be making pilgrimages to Punjab. Most if not all christians and Jews would become amahdiyya. It would follow the basic pattern of what happened after Jesus' first coming.

...This is not happening. Therefore MGA is not correct.
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If MGA was correct then Ahmadiyya's would be the most popular religion on earth right now.

The jews may well have used that arguement to reject Jesus. After all, he ddidnt have too many followers during his lifetime.

Quote:
making pilgrimages to Punjab

You mean Mecca? Thats the only place we're supposed to pilgrimage to.
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The jews may well have used that arguement to reject Jesus. After all, he ddidnt have too many followers during his lifetime.


They used every arguement that had (which wasn't much) but 100 years later Christianity was far bigger than judaism. 100 years after MGA few if any christians (or jews) know or care about MGA.

Quote:
You mean Mecca? Thats the only place we're supposed to pilgrimage to.


What I mean is that if MGA was the second coming of Jesus, christians would be making muge pilgrimages to Punjab. Not muslims (although I think they would too).
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back on topic,

Excerpts from http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/gospel/g4950et2.htm

In regard to his later life the Qur'an states that Muhammad asked Allah several times for forgiveness of his sins, for example, when he married the wife of his adopted son Zaid (Sura al-Ahzab 33:38; Ghafir 40:56; Muhammad 47:21). Muhammad understood himself to be a sinner who lived by God's mercy.

This fact is clearly attested in the Qur'an, yet denied by most Muslims. They claim that all Ambassadors of Allah and his prophets lived irreproachably, without sin. They were accounted as "good ones," just as Allah is good. The assertion that Muhammad, like David or Moses, was an adulterer and murderer, sets Muslims into a blind rage. They idealise Muhammad and fear that an acknowledgement of his imperfection could make his message questionable.

Even Muhammed knew that Jesus was God. The Qur'an literally confirms Christ (Sura al-Nisa 4:171) as the "Logos incarnated" and as a "Spirit of Allah". It testifies that Christ not only taught God's word, but He was it. He lived out what he taught. There was no difference between his words and his deeds. When Muhammad died he did not ascend into heaven, according to Islamic teaching, but his soul remained in an intermediate state (barzach) where it is still waiting for the day of judgement.

So, all Muslims in the world, each time they mention Muhammad's name, must also intercede, "May Allah pray for him and grant him peace!" That means, according to Islam, that Muhammad is not yet saved; he is not living with God. But if the founder of Islam is not yet redeemed, how much more do other Muslims, his followers, live with uncertainty and fear in their heart, waiting for the judgement!

In contrast to Muhammad, Jesus remained without sin throughout his entire life. He was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. The Holy Spirit in Jesus overcame all inherited sinful tendencies from His forefathers, so that He could say to His enemies, "Can any of you convict me of even one sin?" (John 8:46) If they had been able to point out even the slightest unrighteousness in His life, they would have done so with joy. Even in His youth, Jesus remained free of sin. Pilate, the Roman governor, officially confirmed three times that he had found no guilt in this man. Jesus was holy and without sin, but Muhammad was impure, a sinner.

Muhammed brainwashed his followers!
In the first military campaign the Muslims opposed fighting and abandoned Muhammad. They did not want to fight, but to pray; they shunned the spilling of blood, and preferred to prepare themselves for paradise. They often said, "Allah has not predestined us for war" (Sura al-Nisa 4:73-80).

But Muhammad continued with his systematic brainwashing. At first he tried to arouse his followers with direct commands from Allah. He enticed and threatened, made promises and hurled curses. He did everything to motivate the community to attack in the name of Allah. But the Muslims preferred a civil, modest life over battle.

At that point Muhammad confined himself primarily to some wild companions from among his acquaintances, sending them out to attack the small caravans from Mecca. These ventures were not successful until the month of pilgrimage, when all fighting among the Arabs was forbidden under treaty. It was then that Muhammad pushed his followers to attack an unarmed caravan.

When Muhammad had strengthened his power in Medina, he had several of his personal enemies, especially the poets who scoffed at him, killed at the hands of commissioned men. He demanded assassination and revenge. While Medina was encircled and besieged, some Jews of the city conspired with the enemies. Following his victory Muhammad agreed that a mass grave be dug and had several hundred men of this tribe killed by the sword. Muhammad was a mass murderer, and his hands drip with the blood of countless people.

Jesus, however, did not sacrifice others - only Himself. He died on the cross for His friends and enemies - also for Muhammad. But Muhammad resisted Jesus and rejected Him as the crucified Son of God. His spirit was opposed to the spirit of Jesus.





I dont know about you guys, but I REFUSE to mold my life around a mass murderer, adulterer, pedophile, terrorist, brainwasher, liar, thief, hypocrite and slave trader. As a muslim I could never respect myself. But I have a mind of my own. My own 2 eyes work just fine. And it dosen't take a rocket scientist to know a psyco when you see one. If I am to follow someone, they had better be, at least, honorable. And I can find no honor in muhammed. Because MGA followed muhammed (though he tried to reform his teachings) I could never respect him. And if I can't respect him, I can't follow him.
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To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Muhammad understood himself to be a sinner who lived by God's mercy.

What god-fearing person doesnt?

Quote:
an adulterer and murderer

Show me when he committed adultery (i.e: had a relationship outside his current one)
Show me when he "murdered" someone (outside a battle - an actual murder, not just a fight within a battle)

Quote:
(Sura al-Nisa 4:171)

Actually, 171 says:
Quote:
O people of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God's messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not Say: "Trinity." Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. God is enough as a caretaker.


Quote:
That means, according to Islam, that Muhammad is not yet saved; he is not living with God. But if the founder of Islam is not yet redeemed, how much more do other Muslims, his followers, live with uncertainty and fear in their heart, waiting for the judgement!

When getting into heaven, there is, essentially, a wait, until Yom-e-Qayamat (Judgement day) when everyone gets judged. When I was little I used to picture this as a big queue, but somehow now i doubt that.

Quote:
(John 8:46)

Can I just say that the gospels are written by Jeuss's followers and are not divinely revealed. The followers most probably exaggerated (perhaps unknowingly) in order to make Jesus sound great.

Quote:
Muhammed brainwashed his followers!

For the events you've written, where does it say?
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What god-fearing person doesnt?


Im saying that he was an ordinary man. He sinned and theres nothing special about him. Not prophecied about, not accepted by Jews as complimentary to their beliefs, Muhammed was not a Jew. Too many things are working against him, for him to be a prophet or even a holy man. He didnt even understand the concept of substitutional sacrifice which is foundational to both Judaism and christianity. Therefore, he his religion cannot be a succession to either.

Quote:
Show me when he committed adultery (i.e: had a relationship outside his current one)


“The Prophet sent Ibn Abi out with a party of sixteen men. They were away for fifteen nights. Their share of booty was twelve camels for each man, each camel was valued in the accounting as being worth ten sheep. When the people they raided fled in various directions, they took four women, including one young woman who was very beautiful. She fell to Abu Qatadah. The Prophet asked Qatadah about her. He said, ‘She came from the spoils.’ The Messenger said, ‘Give her to me.’ So he gave her to him.” -Tabari VIII:151

I know it doesn't actually say he committed adultery but looking at the sprit of islam, with its "temporary marriages" and slave girls, etc. My gut says he had alot of different women that werent his wives. He treated women as lower than himself. Whereas Jesus treated women as equals. Marriage in islam is a BUSINESS TRANSACTION. You pay a dowry in order to get a wife, after you die she gets the money. There is no romance in that. And im not even mentioning the 4 wives thing. Islam = not for women.


Quote:
Show me when he "murdered" someone (outside a battle - an actual murder, not just a fight within a battle)


Like Hitler he never killed anyone with his bare hands. He used his influence to get others to kill for him. The 2 poets were killed because he asked his men to do it. The 900 Jews were killed because he ordered it. Muslims today kill because muhammed said to do it. And by that reckoning, he has killed more than hitler ever did.

Quote:
When getting into heaven, there is, essentially, a wait, until Yom-e-Qayamat (Judgement day) when everyone gets judged. When I was little I used to picture this as a big queue, but somehow now i doubt that.


Thats why terrorism is so appealing because its a straight shot to paradise. They get there faster than even muhammed. ....hhmmm....

Quote:
Can I just say that the gospels are written by Jeuss's followers and are not divinely revealed. The followers most probably exaggerated (perhaps unknowingly) in order to make Jesus sound great.


Well all his disciples were willing to die HORRIBLE deaths for it. (So did Jesus) It is still the fastest growing religion today (in terms of converts) I'm going to have to say that the evidence is against you on this. Something like this HAS to be divinely inspired. Besides if I was a witness to what these guys saw, I would want to tell others about it too.


Quote:
For the events you've written, where does it say?


They did not want to fight, but to pray; they shunned the spilling of blood, and preferred to prepare themselves for paradise. They often said, "Allah has not predestined us for war" Mohammed used everything in his power to entice his followers to kill and be killed for him. Its called manipulation. Or brainwashing.
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