[FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great Forum Index [FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great
Views expressed here are not necessarily the views & opinions of ActivistChat.com. Comments are unmoderated. Abusive remarks may be deleted. ActivistChat.com retains the rights to all content/IP info in in this forum and may re-post content elsewhere.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Women in Islam
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    [FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great Forum Index -> Philosophy and Religion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject: Women in Islam Reply with quote

Women in Islam

Disclaimer: None of the work here will be mine unless stated. It is all copying from my annotated Quran


What the Quran says

Quote:
3:196 - So their Lord answered their prayers, saying "I will not suffer the work of any of you, whether male or female. You are from one another ... (the rest is pretty much irrelevant)


Whenever people are mentioned in the Quran, both "men and women" are specifically written down. This can be found in several other places. Here, the words: "You are from one another" are meant to emphasise this equality of both genders.

Examples from elsewhere:

Quote:
(4:125) Whoever does good, whether male or female .....


Quote:
(16:9Cool Whoever does good, either male or female .....


Quote:
(33:36) Surely, men who submit themselves to god and women who submit themselves to god, and men who do good, and women who do good, ... God has prepared for all of them a forgiveness and a great reward


Also (taken from http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Women/Islam_Women,_Marriage_and_.html)
Quote:
1. The Qur'an warns men who treat women badly: "O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness; 2. you may not take away part of the dowry (money and jewelry given to a woman before she gets married) you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness (nastiness). 3. On the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity." Professor Doi tells us: 4. "Before the coming of Islam, the pagan Arabs (Arab people who didn't believe in God, or Allah) used to bury female children alive, women danced naked in the vicinity of (near to) the Kaa'ba during their annual fairs, women were treated as mere chattels (animals belonging to an owner) and objects of sexual pleasure -- possessing no rights or position whatsoever. 5. The teachings of the Qur'an were revolutionary (made a great change). Islam regarded men and women as being of the same essence (nature) created from a single soul." Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, said, "Women are the twin halves of men." The Qur'an emphasizes the essential unity of men and women in a beautiful metaphor: "They (your wives) are your garment (protective clothing) and you are a garment for them. (2:187)" (Read more at "Women in the Qur'an and the Sunna" by Prof. Abdur Rahman I. Doi). 6. Islam improved the status (social standing) of women. Baby girls could no longer be killed. Women were to be respected. They could inherit property and could disagree with their parents' wedding arrangements for them.


Of course, a specific verse will come to your minds - about when in court, if 2 men cannot be found as witnesses, 1 man and 2 women will do. This doesnt mean that 2 women = 1 man, it is accepting that one woman may have been related to the person involved in whatever's going on (sorry, i've put away my annotated quran now so my memory may not serve me too well) and it accepts that women are more emotionally vulnerable than men (a viewpoint that is shared among many TV and film writers, judging by the female characters lol).

Also, regarding inheritance, when it says that a man owns more, it also gives them much more responsibility, a burden women don't have to bear.



Rights of Women in Islam over time (I wrote this bit)

Medieval Turkey gave women an extremely high status, like their other Turkic counterparts, the Mongols, saw them as important and wise. In Islamic Turkey, women were accustomed to not walk around with veils. This was also seen in Mali:

Quote:
Ibn Battuta was a traveler in the 14th century. He tells us about women's clothing in many of the places he visited: In Turkey he tells us that the women did not veil themselves.

About Turkey, he writes: "A remarkable thing which I saw in this country was the respect shown to women by the Turks, for they hold a more dignified position than the men. ... I saw also the wives of the merchants and common [men]. [Their faces are] visible for the Turkish women do not veil themselves. Sometimes a woman will be accompanied by her husband and anyone seeing him would take him for one of her servants." [Gibb, p. 415 - 416]

In Mali, West Africa, Ibn Battuta observed ...

"Their women are of surpassing beauty, and are shown more respect than the men. These people are Muslims, punctilious (very exact, never late) in observing the hours of prayer, studying the books of law, and memorizing the Qur'an. Yet their women show no bashfulness before men and do not veil themselves, though they are assiduous (worked hard) in attending prayers. Any man who wishes to marry one of them may do so, but they do not travel with their husbands, and, even if one desired to do so, her family would not allow her to go. The women have their 'friends' and 'companions' among the men outside their own families." He also criticized the women of Mali for going topless: "Female slaves and servants who went stark naked into the court for all to see..." [Dunn, The Adventures of Ibn Battuta, p. 300.]


From Racinet's "The history of Costume," I have also deduced that women were quite free in Persian-Islamic societies and not forced to wear Hijab. Similar things were happening in India, where, even today, among Muslim families, the mother is still given loads of importance. In fact, in the Ahmadi Jamayet I go to, the rules are quite simple - cover your head and your body between your knees and shoulders. This same rules apply for men. My sister, when she goes, often simply puts the hood of her jacket up!

The Arabs begun to have a greater influence on Turkey during the later periods. Arab hijab spread to the Ottoman Empire during the 17th Century, however, it was rarer, and often mixed with Turkish clothing as well. Again, like their nomadic counterparts, girls often simply wore hats with coins on (for decoration). The Turkish have usually had more respect for women than their Arab neighbours, and this is clearly seen in their clothing. Atatürk really nailed womens rights on the head, and his own daughter was the first women pilot. Ever.
(Although, they were secular at that time)

There have also been several important women in Muslim history. Ayshe (who was 19 when she married Mohamed, not 9) led an army. Razia Sultan was a good Indian queen. There are also various others.


Honour Killings
Honour Killings are a horrific event that, unfortunately, has been associated with Islam. Recently, I listened to my father on this subject, who was in turn, quoting our now deceased Khalifa. He said:
Quote:
Anything which takes away the rights of any person is not Islamic. They have come about by cultural influences. Honour killings are not Islamic, they have only come about from reginional influences


This, of course, also applies to other things, such as clothing. As we've seen with the example of Turkey, hijab does not necessarily mean covering the entire face except the eyes.


Sources:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womenquransunnah.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_women_in_Pakistan
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Women/Women_of_the_Past.html
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Clothing/Islam_Clothing,_Jewelry_Ma.html
More Wikipedia
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the quran really teaches about women:


WOMEN IN ISLAM:
(Koran 2:223, 2:228 ... are koranic verses:)

2:223 Your women are a tilt for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilt as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad)

2:228, And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them

2:230, So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her

2:282, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

4:3, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

4:11-12, Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:

4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess.

4:34, Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

33:50
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

53:27, Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names.

66:10, Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: “Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!”

MUSLIM TRADITION, MUSLIM HISTORIANS RECORDINGS ABOUT WOMEN:

1. It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (TR. P 430)
2. A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father or brother. (TR. P 431 )
3. A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (TR. P 432)
4. She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (TR. P 265)
5. A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (TR. P 300)
6. If prostration were a legitimate act other than to God, woman should have prostrated to her husband. (TR. P 428)
7. If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428) 9. The marriage of woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440)

Other:

1. Majority of women would go to hell. (Muslim P 1431)
2. If a woman refuses to come to bed when invited by her husband, she becomes the target of the curses of angles. Exactly the same happens if she deserts her husband's bed. (Bokhari P 93)
3. The women who are ungrateful to their men, are the denizens of hell; it is an act of ingratitude for a woman to say: "I have never seen any good from you." (Bokhari P 96)
4. 14. A woman in many ways is deprived of the possession of her own body. Even her milk belongs to her husband. (Bokhari P 27)

Link To Hadith - Muslim Tradition:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html



WHAT THE TORAH SAYS ABOUT WOMEN:

Women's right to inherit (In the days of Moses) - Torah - Book of Numbers:

Numbers 27:1 Then drew near the daughters of Zelophehad, the son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of Manasseh the son of Joseph; and these are the names of his daughters: Mahlah, Noah, and Hoglah, and Milcah, and Tirzah. cb(27,2); 27:2 And they stood before Moses, and before Eleazar the priest, and before the princes and all the congregation, at the door of the tent of meeting, saying, cb(27,3); 27:3 Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not among the company of them that gathered themselves together against Jehovah in the company of Korah: but he died in his own sin; and he had no sons. cb(27,4); 27:4 Why should the name of our father be taken away from among his family, because he had no son? Give unto us a possession among the brethren of our father. cb(27,5); 27:5 And Moses brought their cause before Jehovah.

cb(27,6); 27:6 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying, cb(27,7); 27:7 The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father’s brethren; and thou shalt cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them. cb(27,Cool; 27:8 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. cb(27,9); 27:9 And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. cb(27,10); 27:10 And if he have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his father’s brethren. cb(27,11); 27:11 And if his father have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family, and he shall possess it: and it shall be unto the children of Israel a statute and ordinance, as Jehovah commanded Moses.

Women Prophetess' In The Bible:

Deborah - A judge and a prophetess in Israel: (Book of Judges Chapter 4)

4:4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, she judged Israel at that time. cb(4,5); 4:5 And she dwelt under the palm-tree of Deborah between Ramah and Beth-el in the hill-country of Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. cb(4,6); 4:6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him, Hath not Jehovah, the God of Israel, commanded, saying, Go and draw unto mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? cb(4,7); 4:7 And I will draw unto thee, to the river Kishon, Sisera, the captain of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thy hand. cb(4,Cool; 4:8 And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go; but if thou wilt not go with me, I will not go. cb(4,9); 4:9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding, the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honor; for Jehovah will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. cb(4,10); 4:10 And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali together to Kedesh; and there went up ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.

Huldah, the woman prophet in the midst of important male prophets!

Huldah who prophesised about the destruction of southern Israel when prominent male prophets Jeremiah and Zephaniah were alive at that time. King Josiah sent messengers to Huldah and not to other male prophets!!!

II Chronicles 34:22 So Hilkiah, and they whom the king had commanded, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tokhath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the second quarter;) and they spake to her to that effect. cb(34,23); 34:23 And she said unto them, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel: Tell ye the man that sent you unto me, cb(34,24); 34:24 Thus saith Jehovah, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah. cb(34,25); 34:25 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore is my wrath poured out upon this place, and it shall not be quenched. cb(34,26); 34:26 But unto the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of Jehovah, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel: As touching the words which thou hast heard, cb(34,27); 34:27 because thy heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and hast humbled thyself before me, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith Jehovah. cb(34,2Cool; 34:28 Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof. And they brought back word to the king.


King David Accepted Advice From A Woman:

II Samuel 14:1-20


CHRIST'S ROLE FOR WOMEN

Christians have always held the belief that...
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." -Paul


Jesus cut through all traditional practices and teaching to lift women to their rightful status within the Kingdom of God. He condemned the teaching of the Law on divorce, with His own legislation, "from the beginning of creation 'God made them male and female.' For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. What God has joined together let no man pull apart." Mk. 10:6-9.)

He condemned the traditional attitudes and practices of His day by His own deliberate actions. He spoke to a woman (one with a reputation at that), in the light of midday, at a public place, at the Well outside Sychar in Samaria. He shocked His disciples (cf. John 4:27) but lifted the woman to the rank of evangelist. Both married and single women were amongst Jesus' closest followers. He permitted them to travel with His itinerant party on their preaching tour through Galilee. It was these women who provided for both Jesus and His disciples from their own possessions (cf. Lk. 8:1-3; Mk. 15:40-41) and there "was not a breath of scandal to hinder His work."

Now I ask you, which do you think treated women the best?

Cyrizian
_________________
You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Women in Christian-Judaism:

- They caused the "original sin" (which in itself, is a ridiculous idea). Hence, women are blamed for mankind's ENTIRE downfall.
- rape victim gets punished by being forced to marry the rapist (or, gets stoned to death)
- http://www.answering-christianity.com/woman.htm

even though i KNOW you wont look that that site ...
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Women in Christian-Judaism:

- They caused the "original sin" (which in itself, is a ridiculous idea). Hence, women are blamed for mankind's ENTIRE downfall.
- rape victim gets punished by being forced to marry the rapist (or, gets stoned to death)
- http://www.answering-christianity.com/woman.htm

even though i KNOW you wont look that that site ...


Actually I have read that site and I see its from the mind of an angry muslim who picks apart christianity as much as he can looking for something...anything that supports his views.

1. Women ARE NOT blamed for mankind's downfall. Yes it may even be true, but we christians are far more concerned about moving forward than dwelling on the past. Imagine if you will a small boat on a raging sea with 2 people in it: a man and a woman. The man and woman could sit there and complain at each other. One would say "Your not rowing fast enough!" the other would say "You caused all this!" Or they could work together and row as one and actually survive this ordeal. In christianity, we are ONE and together we will overcome anything in our path. In Islam man is the slave driver and woman is the slave. If anything goes wrong, its the womans fault! Women are so untrustworthy that it takes 2 womens testimonies to equal 1 mans. A man can have 4 wives and as many concubines as possible! Clearly, the 2 are not working as one. I'll take my system over that any day.

2. Thats simply not true. I have never heard of it ever happening. Please show me your sources.
_________________
You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

apparently its in OT - dont know where - Rhuan told me
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
apparently its in OT - dont know where - Rhuan told me


Actually, I had heard that about islam. Imagine my surprise when you said it was from the OT. But lets say your right. Its somewhere in the Ot. 90% of the OT is history - its what happened. Its not what SHOULD have happened. The NT shows us how to live and if its not in the NT, we christians usually dont follow it.
_________________
You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, the OT is essentially redundant?
http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm

Anyway, I said on another thread some stuff. Here it is:

1. http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/christianity_and_women.htm
Christianity and Women

Promise Keepers is a fundamentalist Christian men's group that thinks the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Not surprisingly, then, the group uses biblical verses to support the subjugation of women. Believers in the inerrancy of the Bible have done so for centuries and always will.

Ephesians 5:23 is an example of a verse that Promise Keepers, and other fundamentalists, use to oppose women's equality. It says "the man is the head of the woman, just as Christ also is the head of the church. . . . [J]ust as the church is subject to Christ, so must women be to their husbands in everything."

Based on this teaching, Promise Keepers leader Bill Bright, who heads the Campus Crusade for Christ, has said men are "the head of the household and women are responders."

Other Bible verses also promote invidious sexism. Paul teaches at I Timothy 2:11-15: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. . . . Yet woman will be saved through bearing children. . . ."

Additionally, Peter 3:1-6 exhorts wives to "be submissive to your husbands" and have "a gentle and quiet spirit." It also states they should behave toward their husbands "as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord." And Titus 2:5 directs that women should be "keepers at home."

With such biblical doctrines being taken seriously for centuries, it's no wonder that women were excluded from many occupations, professions, and positions of leadership until recent times. The modern changes occurred only because society became less Christian and more secular.

In fact, Bible teachings led one of the most respected and influential Catholic theologians of all time, Saint Thomas Aquinas, to promote outrageous sexism. He wrote in the thirteenth century: "Good order would have been wanting in the human family if some were not governed by others wiser than themselves. So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in men the discretion of reason predominates."

Aquinas's statement summarizes the Christian attitude that prevailed toward women during the entire Middle Ages. In many places, it has lasted almost to the present.

Leaders of the Catholic Church still obtain misogynist nonsense from the Bible. As late as 1977, Pope Paul Vl explained that women may not be priests "because our Lord was a man."

These assertions from Catholic leaders cause some people to suspect that the Church's rabid opposition to contraception is based, in part, on a desire to keep women barefoot and pregnant. That way, they would be more likely to stay at home and remain in "subjection."

Blatant sexism is equally obnoxious in the writings of early Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and John Knox. Luther decreed: "Women should remain at home, sit still, keep house and bear and bring up children." He also taught: "If a woman grows weary and at last dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do it." Knox declared: "Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man, not rule and command him. . . ."

Themes of women's inferiority remain prominently and disturbingly present in today's Christian fundamentalist movement. Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson has proclaimed: "God Almighty says that when you enter into a marriage, Jesus Christ is the head of the man, and the husband in turn is the head of the wife. . . . In important decisions, if there is any kind of dispute, the ultimate authority needs to be the husband."

One fundamentalist Baptist preacher, while running for governor of Texas in 1989, promised that if elected he would fire all female state employees. He explained, "Momma needs to get back home where she belongs."

Christianity's long history of denigrating and oppressing women led the pioneer of modern feminism, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, to say: "The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation." She also said about the Bible: "I know of no other books that so fully teach the subjection and degradation of women."

Stanton's reasons for holding those views included not only her knowledge of history and the Bible, but also her experiences in fighting for women's rights during the nineteenth century. For instance, Harper's Magazine said in a November 1853 editorial: "Nothing could be more anti-Biblical than letting women vote."

Similarly, the Catholic World pronounced in its May 1869 issue: "Extend now to women suffrage and eligibility; give them the political right to vote and be voted for, render it feasible for them to enter the arena of political strife . . . and what remains of family union will soon be dissolved."

Sexism and many other social problems can be eradicated only when people reject outdated, ignorant, and oppressive religious dogmas. As Stanton pointed out: "So long as ministers stand up and tell us Christ is the head of the church, so is man the head of the woman, how are we to break the chains which have held women down through the ages?"

She was right. Superstitious and dogmatic ideas about the sexes need to be replaced with humanistic attitudes based on reason and compassion.

When that happens, people are likely to agree with Robert Ingersoll on the subject of women's rights. The great nineteenth-century proponent of Humanism said: "In my judgment, the woman is the equal of the man. She has all the rights I have. . . . If there is any man I detest, it is the man who thinks he is the head of a family - the man who thinks he is 'boss.'"

Ingersoll was also correct in describing the benightedness of the male sexists: "The men who declare that woman is the intellectual inferior of man, do not and cannot, by offering themselves in evidence, substantiate their declaration."

Finally, the nineteenth-century poet Walt Whitman, another freethinker who was opposed by conservative religionists of his day, was on target when he wrote: "I am the poet of the woman the same as the man, / And I say it is as great to be a woman as to be a man."

2. http://www.evilbible.com/sexism_in_the_torah.htm
Sexism in the Torah



Sexism is quite rampant in the Torah, considering the Hebrews were once a very chauvinistic society when it was written. As a feminist, I find it my duty to site the following verses and remind fellow women of the sexist pig they are told to worship. I can not possibly list all of the injustices that the Torah mentions. Everything from the story of Lilith (who was booted out of Eden for having dominant sex with Adam) to how women are blamed for the fall from grace. I had to settle for merely presenting a sample list as of right now and I shall add more verses as I thumb threw the Pentateuch a second time. In the mean while, please feel free to utilize anything you see here.

Genesis 3:16 Says that all women must suffer great pains during child birth due to Eve eating the fruit of knowledge. (As if it is somehow just that humans should pay for their ancestor’s sins nor is a woman dying in labor some how befitting of a crime she did not commit.) The verse finishes of by saying a husband shall “rule” over his woman, stripping us off all power in between the sexes.

Genesis 19:8 Tells of a man named Lot who offers his daughters to a crowd of would be angel rapers. Later, Lot impregnates his own daughters after God kills his wife for simply looking back at the remains of her city.

Genesis 38:16-24 Tells a very interesting story of a man named Judah whom lived with his widowed daughter in law. His daughter in law was grieving and wearing the veils of mourning which Judah (a rather stupid man) mistook for the clothing of a prostitute. He ended up impregnating his daughter in law and she left the city. On a later date Judah sees the young woman again and demanded she be burned for being a prostitute (I like how only the woman is punished when THEY BOTH engaged in the sexual act). It wasn’t until Judah recognized the woman as his daughter in law and she was with his child, that he decided not to kill her. Basically, Judah can commit incest, use a prostitute (in his mistaken perception), and impregnate a MUCH younger woman, yet he thinks she is the one deserving of death.

Exodus 21:3-4 Says that if a male slave is given a wife by his master (regardless of how long they are wed, how much they love each other or if they have kids) he can not leave servanthood with his wife or children. The woman and children are merely property of the master and their personal happiness or sanctity of family doesn’t matter.

Exodus 21:7 God not only sanctions selling ones daughter into slavery, but he also gives out laws on how it should be done.

Exodus 21:10 God ordains men taking several wives and even sets up laws as to how multiple wives should be handled.

Leviticus 12:1-8 Explains that a woman has to be purified after giving birth because she is “unclean”. It goes on to say that birthing a male is cleaner then birthing a female, hence a mother must purify TWICE as long when having a daughter. This is BLATANT sexism from the point of birth. A woman is dirty simply for being a woman; this is obviously very biased and chauvinistic.

Leviticus 15:19-30 Explains that a woman having her menstruation must be avoided to the point of not even touching what she has touched. It is quite curious that women are punished for simply having a biological function that “God” claims to have created. What is so just about vilifying what you created?

Leviticus 18:19 Goes onto say that even LOOKING at a menstruating woman is wrong.

Leviticus 19:20 Says that if a man has sex with a slave or betrothed woman he must then “scourge” her. Scourging is a term for a severe flogging or whipping. I find it quite curious that the woman shall be punished to the point of a beating for such an occurrence, yet the man gets to go free for the deed.

Leviticus 21:9 Explains that unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. What about his unchaste sons? Of course this isn’t even answered in the Torah, we are to assume yet again that men have the power to do as they wish and a woman must suffer the punishment for BOTH of them.

Leviticus 27:3-7 God places a dollar value on human life; with women worth less than men.

Numbers 1:2 Is the basis for the sexism that remains rampant today. In this verse Moses takes a poll of all the men who are able to fight in war, women aren’t even counted in the census. Apparently back then, just like today, us women are considered the weaker species and unable to battle. (Let’s not forget that during the time the Pentateuch was written women in Pagan cultures were FEARED and revered as the more powerful species. It is because of this patriarchal religion and it’s offshoots that we have been reduced to cowering sub-humans.)

Numbers 30:3-16 A woman can’t make a vow unless her husband allows it.

Numbers 31: 14-18 Moses tells his men to kill all the males, non-virginal women, elderly and children of the Midianite tribe. Of course, the virgin women are kept for raping. If you read later down in the scripture God states that the Jews can not even marry a Midianite woman (with exception to Moses). Hence these women who were captured were repeatedly raped and impregnated and they weren’t even allowed a marital status in which to protect them.

Deuteronomy 20:13-15 Kill all the men and boys in the cities that God “delivers into your hands,” but keep the women for raping.

Deuteronomy 21:11-14 If you see a pretty woman among the captives then just take her home and “go in unto her.”

Deuteronomy 22:5 Women that wear men’s clothing are an “abomination unto the Lord.”

Deuteronomy 22:13-22 Women, be sure to keep the tokens of your virginity. Otherwise the men of your city may stone you to death. This does not apply to men though, of course. What is interesting to note here is the actual wording, it says : “that if a man hateth his wife he may say she did not have the tokens of her virginity”. Since there is no way a woman can truly prove she had a hymen upon marriage the word rests on the husband and she can be disposed of simply when he tires of her.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 is one of the most cruel and sexist passages of the Torah. It says that women who are raped and fail to “cry out loud” in a populated area are most likely enjoying the attack should be killed.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 A rapist must buy his victim from her father for 50 shekels. Is this supposed to be some type of retribution? What about the victim here, what if she doesn’t want to marry a pig who raped her? All that matters is her father receives payment for his “property”.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 Says that we must cut off a woman’s hand if she touches the “secrets” of a man who is fighting with her husband…“And thine eye shall not pity her.” Once again, there is no punishment for the man she touched, only the woman.

Now, why would god choose israel to be his selected people?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, the OT is essentially redundant?
http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm



No, it is still the law. But christians believe that the law has been fulfilled. IE we do not sacrifice because the greatest sacrifice has been fulfilled by Yeshua. The law (OT) was put in place so that people could be purified enough to be in contact with God. But now that the ultimate purification has been completed, many of these laws no longer apply. This does not mean the laws are useless, however. Without the law and the prophets all we have as chrstians means nothing. It is because of these laws and because of these prophecies that the Messiah came. In other words, the law and the prophets (OT) is a locked door and Jesus is the key. If you only have one or the other it is useless to you. You must have both in order to open the door and walk though it.

You make a good point. It is stated that a man is stationed over a woman. But it is also stated that "the first shall be last and the last shall be first. If any man desire to be first, he should be last of all, and servant of all." What this means is that in this life, a man may hold sway over a woman, but in the life to come, that may not be the case. It is better that both humble themselves.

Quote:
Now, why would god choose israel to be his selected people?


This is a controversial question. But you misunderstand: being "chosen" does not mean you are better than all the other nations on earth. It means you are selected to perform a difficult task.

Deuteronomy 7:7-9 tells us, “The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.”

God chose the nation of Israel to be the people through whom Yeshua would be born – the Savior from sin and death (John 3:16). God did not have to have a “chosen people” but He decided to do it that way. Jesus had to come from some nation of people, and God chose Israel. God’s desire for Israel was that they would go and teach others about Him. Israel was to be a nation of priests, prophets, and missionaries to the world.
_________________
You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It means you are selected to perform a difficult task.

Implying that you are able to said task (when others arent), implying you are better than others.

You know, you've managed to explain so much more than I actually asked (such as the judaeo-christian obsession with israel).

imo every nation was "chosen" in a way and every one got their own special prophet - Jesus for Israelis, Zoroaster for the Persians, Krishna for Indians ... you get the idea. They all got their own people to preach to and youll notice that they refer to their own peoples in their writings - eg: there are no mentions of Israelis in Hinduism or Budhism, there are no mentions of the Chinese in the Greek polytheism. Likewise, I could probably say that Mohammad was a prophet for the Arabs. The Quran, after all, does contain a detailed history of the pre-Islamic tribes. But, then again, as you've pointed out, Mohamad is a bit of an ... anomaly. You take this to mean that his prophethood was false. However, he went through many ordeals in his life, many of which couldnt have been survived without the help of god. Unlike other prophets, who, as you claim, already knew a lot before becoming prophets, Mohammad was so exceptional that he was taought how to read and write etc by god herself. Besides, it says somewhere in the quran, that islam is a faith for all peoples of all times. (theres something similar in christianity as well, isnt there).
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Implying that you are able to said task (when others arent), implying you are better than others.


I think you are reading too much into that. Its not that others arent able, its just that God wants it that way. Maybe the jews did more for God at that time than any other people. Maybe they are "special" or maybe everyone else didn't want to be that kind of "special." Maybe at the time, no one else was interested. God alone knows.

Christians are obsessed with Israel because very soon the dome of the rock will no longer be there and the Jews will rebuild their temple. The Jews will be excited about this but for christians it will be very bad. At the dedication ceremony the antichrist will appear and will begin an era of hardship for christianity called the "tribulation" at the end of which Yeshua will return. Some Christians are terrified but others are excited because although the antichrist will kill us, it will begin the reign of Yeshua as king on earth.

Quote:
Mohamad is a bit of an ... anomaly


He isnt an anomaly, he is a false prophet just like shimon bar kochba and all the others. He has as much claim to being a prophet as all the other false prophets there is simply nothing that sets him apart from them. His teachings have taken mankind BACKWARDS not forwards. He simply has nothing to offer the world.

Quote:
Mohammad was so exceptional that he was taought how to read and write etc by god herself.


There is no scriptural basis in the koran for that. And most historians agree that Mohammeds followers wrote the ENTIRE koran.

Quote:
Besides, it says somewhere in the quran, that islam is a faith for all peoples of all times.


Islam maybe a faith for all people. But Christianity is the redeeming of the soul and the reuniting of the lover (God) with his bride (all people.) Im sorry but Christianity is just much more interesting.
_________________
You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, I have to agree, it is more interesting (esp revelations ... ooooo :p)

So, this ceremony ... is the jews doing it? Because it sounds a bit like that from here.

Bar Kokhba .. wasnt he the guy who rebelled against the romans AND GOT KILLED? Mohammad, even after everything he went through, died naturally because god does not allow a prophet to be killed by another human. I think, if you look at the track record, all prophets have died naturally. (Jesus- well, in ur beliefs, hes not a prophet, and in mine, he didnt die on the cross!)

Quote:
mankind BACKWARDS not forwards. He simply has nothing to offer the world

I swear I've been here before
- medecine - eg: Averose and stuff. Ok, the texts were greek, but its not like the Byzantines were gonna do anything about they were too busy proclaiming all greek polytheism as infidel.
- step up in womens rights - ok, by todays standard, in most islamic countryes, its ****. But, at that time, if you compared womens rights in Europe and womens rights in the Islamic world, guess who wins? Islam was, essentially, a step up that womens rights needed.
(Oh - another thing. In the west, everyone claims to be all equal-gender and stuff, but then you have crazy things like pornography which clearly indicates that women are being exploited etc etc)
- Tolerance - although nowadays it is shited up, 600 years ago, you'll find that (esp. in Andalusya) Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together. In Christian countries at that time (well, they were essentially religios monarchies) everyone not the right sect of christianity was being burnt for herecy. Too bad nowadays its been reversed.
- Arabic language - I mean, the conquest across north africa, turkey, and asia makes vocab learning so much easier, its like, you only need one list. Heck, when I was (am) learning farsi, I can make my way through a text without looking up most words because theyre also in Urdu Very Happy
- TURKISH!!! HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THEM?!?!?!
sorry for being superficial its genetic RazzRazzRazz

Quote:
But Christianity is the redeeming of the soul and the reuniting of the lover (God) with his bride (all people.)

Actually, to my knowledge, Christianity is about how daddy killed his son on the cross to save mankind. The uniting god w/ ppl is there in most/all theistic faiths.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, this ceremony ... is the jews doing it? Because it sounds a bit like that from here.


Yes it will be the jews (although many believe that many different faiths will be present.)

Quote:

Bar Kokhba .. wasnt he the guy who rebelled against the romans AND GOT KILLED? Mohammad, even after everything he went through, died naturally because god does not allow a prophet to be killed by another human. I think, if you look at the track record, all prophets have died naturally. (Jesus- well, in ur beliefs, hes not a prophet, and in mine, he didnt die on the cross!)


Actually many prophets have been killed by other human beings.

Isaiah...............Killed with a wooden saw
Joel..................Beaten to death with a staff
Amos...............Also beaten to death with a staff
Habakkuk.........Stoned to death
Jeremiah..........Stoned to death
Ezekiel.............killed by the chief of the Jews in Chaldea
Zechariah.........killed by king Joash
and John the Baptist was beheaded by Herodias

Jesus was not a prophet, he was God and he could be killed anyway he wished.

Quote:
I swear I've been here before
- medecine - eg: Averose and stuff. Ok, the texts were greek, but its not like the Byzantines were gonna do anything about they were too busy proclaiming all greek polytheism as infidel.
- step up in womens rights - ok, by todays standard, in most islamic countryes, its ****. But, at that time, if you compared womens rights in Europe and womens rights in the Islamic world, guess who wins? Islam was, essentially, a step up that womens rights needed.
(Oh - another thing. In the west, everyone claims to be all equal-gender and stuff, but then you have crazy things like pornography which clearly indicates that women are being exploited etc etc)
- Tolerance - although nowadays it is shited up, 600 years ago, you'll find that (esp. in Andalusya) Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together. In Christian countries at that time (well, they were essentially religios monarchies) everyone not the right sect of christianity was being burnt for herecy. Too bad nowadays its been reversed.
- Arabic language - I mean, the conquest across north africa, turkey, and asia makes vocab learning so much easier, its like, you only need one list. Heck, when I was (am) learning farsi, I can make my way through a text without looking up most words because theyre also in Urdu
- TURKISH!!! HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THEM?!?!?!
sorry for being superficial its genetic


So where is all this "progressivism" now? Personally I don't believe it ever existed or if it did, it was just a fluke.

Quote:

Actually, to my knowledge, Christianity is about how daddy killed his son on the cross to save mankind. The uniting god w/ ppl is there in most/all theistic faiths.


Just for clarification, God let himself be killed to save mankind. No most theistic faiths believe in bettering one's self to either BE god or meet with God. Christianity is about God meeting with us (which BTW is what "immanuel" means)
_________________
You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rhuan



Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the orriginal subject of this topic, a quote from the quran regarding women:

Quote:
004:011 God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children: "To the male shall be as that given to two females. If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two thirds of what is inherited. And if there is only one female, then she will have one half, and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children. If he has no children and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third; if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth. All after a will is carried through or a debt. Your parents and your children, you do not know which is closer to you in benefit, a directive from God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise."

_________________
bokura wa itsudemo sakenderu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another interesting fact about islam regarding women: every mosque I have ever seen only allows the women to enter through the back door whereas men always come from the front. Whats up with that? Do the women somehow desecrate the entrance by walking through the front door?

In every aspect of life, Islam dominates, and the victims are sadly, mostly women.
_________________
You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually in ahmadi mosques the womens section is same furnished from the mens section and have the same door.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    [FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great Forum Index -> Philosophy and Religion All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group