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Risks of appeasing Iran's mullahs - Scottish MP
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saman wrote:
stefania wrote:
Saddam was a danger to the world, and was most of all, he was a danger to his people . Don't forget the Iranians died by his hands


I am not saying this, it's good that he was removed. But the time of his removal has shown to have been bad and now it is giving us unwanted consequences.


So? Should we have waited longer and let the Iraqi people being tortured ?

I cannot share this debate.

I say that whatever will happen , Saddam removed has been a GREAT thing.

Then, the after war has been handled poorly by the State Dept.

But this has nothing to do with the removal of the Saddam's regime.

It has to do with the incompetence of some policies by the State Dept there.

I'm supporting the Iraqi people in their aspirations and am supporting the elections .

Here's some good bloggers belonging to Secular Iraqis, living inside Iraq: they're Sunni, Shiites and Kurdishd.

http://iraqilibe.blogspot.com

http://democracyiniraq.blogspot.com

http://www.ibnalrafidain.blogspot.com

http://hammorabi.blogspot.com

http://messopotamian.blogspot.com

http://nabilsblog.blogspot.com

http://iraqithoughts.blogspot.com

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com

http://iraqataglance.blogspot.com

http://healingiraq.blogspot.com

Iraq Election Blog:

http://iraqelect.com

The party I support the most :

http://www.english.iraqdemparty.org
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I've been saying that now it's the Iran's turn.

This does NOT mean that Iran must be attacked. It means that there's a need for a BIG revolution and mobilization of the Iranians in the Diaspora to lend a hand to the Iranians inside. Then, at last, some foreign power might notice.

Only if MILLIONS take to the streets in Iran will the US give moral support


Unfortunately, some voices aren't heard.

Crying or Very sad

I wrote this and I thought you might be interested in reading it and tell me what you think

The noblest goal

http://freethoughts.splinder.com/post/3693674

No, it's not preaching and invoking "peace". It's not preaching a "peace" that kills much more than a war does.

A peace at the expense of leaving a people in the hands of a system that torturs and kills him only because he has a different opinion than the ruling system that keeps him as a slave.

The main goal for every country caring about Freedom, should be spreading,promoting and exporting democracy wherever it is denied.

It should be appreciated by everyone, regardless one's political ideology.

Sadly,the reality is quite the opposite. Those who boast to consider all the peoples as deserving the same rights and opportunities, in truth are also those who stain themselves of the worst form of racism:claiming that the Arabs and the Muslims are, innately, unfit for self-govern and democracy; claiming that the Middle Eastern culture is incompatible with the very concept of Democracy; claiming that, if given an opportunity, they would vote for Islamist candidates.

This is a claim that is often heard from the groups on both the left and the extreme right. It would be like to say that these peoples don't deserve to enjoy the same rights to liberty we do.

Why can we and cannot they?

Are they maybe innately inferior to us?

This seems to be what these individuals believe.

By thinking so, one tends to justify the so-called "secular dictatorships".

Yet, the current reality is proving that these individuals are totally wrong. In Afghanistan, million Afghans voted massively,despite serious terrorist concerns.

The outcome was not favorable to an islamist. The afghan people is not eager to elect theocrats.

They are appreciating the newborn democracy and will do so as they realize the benefits and advantages of living in a society that Nathan Sharansky correctly calls "the free society opposed to the fear one."

As for Iraq, million Iraqis are registering to vote and don't want their first democratic elections to be delayed, despite the terrorist threats and the current situation.

This proves the Iraqi's desire to discover what Democracy is and how it works.

Many of those who don't believe in the Arab democratic aspirations might be disapppointed by the success of the democratic experiment in Iraq, as well as they would if they learn about the growing number of Liberal Arabs that are working for a country-by-country debate on Democracy in their societies and governing systems. Phenomenon that involves now even the most unknown arab individuals.

I believe in the arabs' and muslims' democratic aspirations and in the concept of Democracy as a universal value and ideal.

All the men, innately, cannot stand forever the lack of liberty and freedom. Every man could stay without breathing for a very short lapse of time, but not forever.

Moreover, I am convinced that it's the duty of every democratic nation promote,spread and exporting Democracy, also in the Middle East, if we are serious about our will to defeat terror.

Th war on terror will be won once we win the hearts and the minds of the peoples of the region to the concept of Democracy.

In the Saddam's Iraq, for instance, the schoolchildren used to learn how to hate and kill mercilessly the "infidel" and an imaginary "enemy".

Today, they study and learn mathematics,informatics and other subjects.

They no longer learn to hate and kill.

This is important as today's Iraqi children will be the new Iraqi generation of tomorrow. They will not be the martyrs that Saddam wanted them to become. They will be doctors, dentists, informatic engineers,etc..

All these millions of Iraqis are a resource for world peace and security and a blow to the terrorist recruiters.

But that is not enough. In the other Islamic countries, including those who are wrongly labeled as "moderate", million individuals are subjected to jihadist and islamist indoctrination, starting from the school years.

Freeing, with every mean at our disposal, these peoples would mean denying Al Qaeda and the Terrorist networks potential recruits.

Let's help the Liberal Arabs and Muslims prevail over the extremists.

If we succeed in doing so, we will have won the war on the new century's evil.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The situation is not very good.. It'd be good to hear about more protests taking place in iran, but so far every thing is calm..

This is because in the past they tried to make their voice heard and then have been arrested and killed..

I think that some good initiative should come from the exiles .

a plan or something else..
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perzopolis



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
Saman wrote:
stefania wrote:
Saddam was a danger to the world, and was most of all, he was a danger to his people . Don't forget the Iranians died by his hands


I am not saying this, it's good that he was removed. But the time of his removal has shown to have been bad and now it is giving us unwanted consequences.


So? Should we have waited longer and let the Iraqi people being tortured ?

I cannot share this debate.

I say that whatever will happen , Saddam removed has been a GREAT thing.

Then, the after war has been handled poorly by the State Dept.

But this has nothing to do with the removal of the Saddam's regime.

It has to do with the incompetence of some policies by the State Dept there.

I'm supporting the Iraqi people in their aspirations and am supporting the elections .



Stefania - I don't think anyone in this forum is wishing for things to get worse or are not wishing that things go well in Iraq. All Iranians and Americans I believe stand with the average Iraqi citizen. But Stefania, we're not talking about something black and white like Saddam in power, Saddam out of power, and I don't think the war was commenced with the vision to stop Saddam's torture. The was was commenced because President Bush said his regime was a clear and Present danger. We Iranians and many Americans knew then as has been verified now, that more dangerous than Saddam are the Mullahs, Saudis, North Koreans, - even China's increasing power.

That being said. The State Dept's Powell and Armitage have not done anything for the Iranian people - and are similar to Europeans Jack Straw and others. But the State Dept my dear does not fight wars. The Pentagon does. Secondly - the fault is the overall plan. The overall strategy. The overall goal.

It is now very clear that the goal and objective of FREEDOM is FAR from the TOP OF THE LIST.

Freedom as an objective is the MOST NOBLE GOAL. Unfortunately many of the military actions we, the United States, have taken is not for freedom but other alterior motives - however in the end they append "FREEDOM" to the motive and objectives so that it desensitizes the population and makes the dummys believe their number one priority was freedom to begin with.

free Iran is the only way!
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perzopolis



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
The situation is not very good.. It'd be good to hear about more protests taking place in iran, but so far every thing is calm..

This is because in the past they tried to make their voice heard and then have been arrested and killed..

I think that some good initiative should come from the exiles .

a plan or something else..


Stefania - do you think the US Government has responsibility to help the Iranian people and exiles? Or do you think we can FREE IRAN ourselves.

At the end of the day, the iranian people need the support of American Govt. especially when faced with a regime that is supported from EU, Russia, China, etc..
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you. But the first step is up to you all.

Perzepolis, I invite you to visit my weblog and write comments on my posts if you want.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, all I'm trying to say is NOT who was more dangerous..

I'm saying that I will never complain the fact that Saddam the Butcher of Baghdad has gone and I think Bush has done the right thing, as in Afghanistan.

As well as I am ADVOCATING THAT DEMOCRACY IS SPREADED ACROSS THE GLOBE : IRAN, SAUDI ARABIA, UZBEKISTAN, BELARUS, MOLDOVA, RUSSIA, LYBIA, EGYPT, SYRIA, PAKISTAN , ETC ETC.

In my blog I am supporting the causes of the freedom in all the above countries.

In my opinion, NO Tyrant must be left governing on an innocent people.

whether rightist, leftist or theocratic, Tyranny must be eradicated.

Tyranny is a Cancer
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perzopolis



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first step?

Iranians have taken millions of steps and sacraficed lives against the fu***** mullahs - and the United States has not stood by our side once! I agree with you - all of these fanatical dictatorships should be overthrown, but even if the population ruled by these bastard regimes is against the system and regime - they cannot by themselves remove the cronies - it takes help from the outside, since in fact it is help from the outside (EU) that allows the mullahs to beat the hell out of the Iranians - and also perform terrorist acts throughout Iraq which kill American and Iraqis.

Why is the EU supporting the Mullahs? Business Deals. Better question is: Why doesn't the United States stand up and tell EU to shove it??
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 1829

PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Iranians have taken millions of steps and sacraficed lives against the fu***** mullahs


Exactly! Many people have given up, because all they've ever seen is people who dissent get killed or jailed. The fact that the last wave of protests received no support and was smashed has been particualrly devastating.

At this point, with Russia, China and EU lining up as the Mullah$' biggest backers, the Iranian people need support from someone, like the US.
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ableiter



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spenta wrote:
Quote:
The deterioration of human rights in Iran has revealed new depths of barbarity, where pregnant women and children are routinely executed and floggings and amputations are an almost daily public spectacle.


Shame on the Filthy, Greedy, Immoral, Neo Colonilia$t EU for sponsoring the Mullah$ reign of terror and brutality in return for profit!


Wait a minute. The USA is planting democracy (consensual government) in the ME manly for profit. The difference is that 'old europe' is thinking of it's own profit, while new europe and the USA is looking for EVERYONE to profit. Nothing wrong with profit. What IS wrong is profiting at anothers expense. That is not capitalism, but robbery. True Capitalism is a zero sum game. Everyone wins.
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ableiter



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spenta wrote:
Quote:
Saddam Hussein had to be removed.


Perhaps. But there were and still are far worst threats to world and US security, and far worst dictators than Saddam like Iran and North Korea, however neither country had Iraq's oil reserves. It wasn't about threat, or who had to be removed, it was about O.I.L. Oppression, Ignorance and Lies or business as usual!

If the US wanted Iran freed, Iran would have been freed. And Iraq, was the biggest strategic mistake of the US in decades.


Spenta, While very powerful, America is not all-powerful. We have constraints on us, just as all soveriegn nations do. While our retraints are self imposed, that doesn't reduce theor binding power. Despite the claims of our enemies, America doesn't rush to war.
The USA has a LOT of experience with war. Since our founding in 1776, the USA has fought in more wars then any other nation on earth. There are very sound Military and political reasons why Iraq had to be first. We are not interested in killing million of Iranians.
While I think that the chance of the Mullahs getting up from their palace and going back to the mosque is very small, it has to be given the opportunity. For both the sake of civilization and the thousands of Lives that will be lost in an invasion of Iran. There are many things that can be tried first. After that, if needed, an invasion can be launched from Iraq. From the military POV, a sea invasion of Iran is almost impossible. It would be a years long struggle fighting our way up the mountains without solid logistical support.
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BitWhys



Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 164
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Afghanistan democracy is the whole in the donut and the first proof that true democracy does not show up at the end of a foreigner's guns. Square inch for square inch the real winners there so far are the drug lords.

Iraq was a war of convenience I'm starting (probably naively) to think will come to a proper end to the credit of the Iraqi people themselves, NOT their "liberators". Keep in mind they still have to navigate the very treacherous landscape economic recovery. The REAL players are chomping at the bit for that to start.

What to do about the Mullah's nuclear threat? Do we look them in the eye and tell them to give it up? tell the we're on to them? tell them to get out of town while they still have money in their pockets? I hope so but I can't even start to press the matter if I can't demonstrate the people of Iran have the chops to pull it off.

peace,
b
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