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[FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great
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reza
Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 466
Location: England
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 Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I say to you f...ck islam......... |
real intellectual argument there blank - at least acknowledge that even tough you are ignorant to islam, it can help other people.
Zadig where are you going? you were really talking some sense back there i say france 1 usa 0
_________________
"When on the battlefield if you have the sole intention of breaking into the enemy lines, you will manifest martial valour. Furthermore if you are slain in battle you should be resolved to having your corpse facing the enemy" - Yamamoto tsunetomo |
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Azadeh_55
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 467
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Zadiq wrote:
| Quote: | | look at my Algerian, Tunisian, Marocci friends, Islam is helping them to get out of delinquence and start believing in life. |
Are you sure Algeria is a good example to mention in support of your points? Here is an article by Amnesty International about what the Islamic folk are doing over in Algeria:
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/pressawards97/periodicals.html
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"Where Girls are Killed for Going to School"
One of the beliefs of Algeria's Islamic extremists is that women should not be educated, and militants are now brutally murdering schoolchildren and female teachers. Lara Marlowe reports on the escalating violence of the country's civil war. At 8.15 in the morning, six men holding hatchets, sawn-off shotguns and knives burst into the classroom at Oued Djer, a small village 50km south-west of Algiers. They seized fourteen-year-old Fatima Ghodbane and tore from her head the Islamic scarf she had only recently started wearing. As Fatima's classmates watched, the men dragged her outside and bound her hands with wire. One of the guerillas pulled her head back by the hair and stabbed her several times in the face. Then he slit her throat.
'This is what happens to girls who go to university,' the murderer then told Fatima's classmates and teachers, shaking the knife, which was still covered in Fatima's blood. 'This is what happens to girls who talk to policemen. This is what happens to girls who don't wear the hidjab [Islamic covering].'
Before dumping Fatima's body in front of the school gates, the killers carved the symbol of the Armed Islamic Group (GIA) on her hand. Fatima's death, in March 1995, is not an isolated case. According to the last recorded government figures, 101 teachers and 41 students of both sexes were killed in 1994 by Islamic extremists who attack schools because they are a symbol of the government.
No one is sure why the GIA which was formed in 1993, singled out Fatima Ghodbane for this butchery. Until her death, she and her eight brothers and sisters had lived peacefully with their widowed father, a retired builder. 'No one ever threatened us - neither me nor my children,' Fatima's grieving father later told journalists.
So why was Fatima murdered? 'She was very beautiful,' says Mouloud Benmohamed, a reporter on El Moudjahid, the Algerian government newspaper. 'Her friends believe that she may have refused to have a 'pleasure marriage' with the leader of the group, the Emir.
The GIA apparently believes the 'holy warriers' of Islam have a right to claim sexual pleasure before they sacrifice their own lives in the name of Allah. The 'pleasure marriage' is, in effect, a licence to rape. Since the civil war between Islamic fundamentalists and the military-backed regime broke out four and a half years ago, more than 50,000 Algerians have been killed. Of this figure, some 500 women have been murdered by rebels - which amounts to one per cent of the total war casualties. But feminist groups and the government have given wide publicity to the kidnappings, assassinations and rapes that have taken place. A television series made by El Moudjahid's Mouloud Benmohamed this spring attained the highest ratings of any Algerian-made programme. Viewers were shown the corpses of mutilated and decapitated women, and heard lurid accounts from several young women who had escaped captivity. Mawel, a 28-year-old divorcee, admits to being 'completely hooked' on the macabre documentaries. 'One girl told how she and her mother had been kidnapped and taken to the mountains by her own brother. He married them off to friends in the GIA. The girl managed to get away, but the mother didn't. It scared me, but I watched the next Friday night because I wanted to know how these women were kidnapped, how they'd escaped...I don't want it to happen to me.
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'They started attacking women because they're a symbol. Women are the backbone of the family. If you terrorise women, you terrorise the whole society'
Mouloud Benmohamed, Algerian journalist
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Common criminals have been quick to take advantage of the anarcy to rape and pillage. No one can ever be sure whether envy, a recent snub or an old property dispute lies behind the killings. 'We've got to the point where people are assassinated for the sake of assassinated for the sake of assassination, because they're easy victims,' says Zohra Flici, President of the government-backed Association of Families Victimised by Terrorism, whose own husband, a doctor, was murdered in 1993. 'Some women are killed because they are related to members of the security forces, some because they refuse pleasure marriages, and some because they are journalists, teachers or students.'
The sad distinction of being the first woman 'martyr' of Algeria's terrible war fell to twenty-year-old Karima Belhadj. Unknown outside her native country, her pretty face and long hair are now a familiar image throughout Algeria, printed as they are on posters which are carried in protest marches against the war. Until her death in 1993 she lived in Les Eucalyptus, a dusty, sinister slum on the eastern outskirts of Algiers. As a secretary at the Police Welfare and Sports Association, she was among the eight per cent of Algerian women to hold a paid job. With a salary of £150 per month, she supported her parents, three brothers and two sisters.
Karima had wanted to continue her studies, but had been obliged to find a job when her father lost his with a water-bottling company and her brothers were unable to find work. She had fallen in love with the bus driver who used to take her to college, and they were engaged. Every night when she came home from work, she would embroider clothes for her wedding trousseau. 'She loved life,' says Karima's mother, Hassina. 'She liked to sew and cook. She liked hairdressing for her friends and her sisters. We told each other everything. She was my best friend.'
On 6 April 1993, Hassina was making preparations for Karima's wedding when she heard shots. Her son Rida ran out into the street. 'Karima was lying on the ground,' he explains. 'Her eyes were open and there was a big hole between her eyes, and blood flowing out of her head. I see that image of her all the time, and I ask myself 'Why? Why? Why?' For just £, the boy across the street had pointed Karima out to the gunmen as she got of the evening bus. A Koran lies under the TV set in her family's home, and a picture of Mecca hangs on the wall above the sofa. But the Belhadj family's version of Islam is unacceptable to fundamentalists, who want the Koran to rule every aspect of life. 'For them, it's inconceivable that a girl goes to college or works,' says journalist Mouloud Benmohamed. 'They started attacking women because they're a symbol. Women are the backbone of the family. If you terrorise women, you terrorise the whole society.'
The seeds of Islamist oppression of women were sown by Algeria's post-independence rulers. Women fought alongside men in the 1954-1962 war of liberation against France. But during three decades of eastern-bloc-style socialist government, they were given only a few token cabinet positions. Algeria's 1984 Family Code is considered one of the most backward in the Arab world, for it makes women lifelong wards of their fathers, brothers and husbands.
Fundamentalist scorn for women's rights is bound up with their hatred of the West, but it is also rooted in an Algerian tradition of misogyny. 'No society that entrusts its affairs to a woman will ever know prosperity,' is a common adage in Algeria. When Sheikh Ali Belhadj, an imprisoned Islamic leader, said he would abolish unemployment by forcing women to stay at home, he was applauded. Yet the Algerian government itself is accused of abusing women in this war. Torture is routine in Algerian prisons.
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Women have most to lose from the anti-education campaign. The militants insist that the sexes be separated, and that music and gym classes for girls be shut down.
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A young man, who gives his name only as Mohamed, was accused of making inflammatory sermons against the government. The nineteen-year-old, bearing visible marks of torture on his legs a few days after his release from Algiers's Serkadji Prison, provides shocking evidence of what can happen to a women in police custody. Under interrogation at the Chateauneuf police station, he caught sight of the mother of a man he knew. 'They tortured and raped her in front of her son,' says Mohamed. 'I saw her when she came out. She was naked and covered in blood. We heard other women screaming but we didn't know where they were.'
Only days before they murdered fourteen-year-old Fatima Ghodbane, the GIA threatened to kill the wives of policemen, gendarmes and soldiers unless the government agreed to free all the Islamist women it held.
Both the government and exiled Algerian fundamentalists have included women victims in the horrific photograph albums they publish of each others atrocities.
Little wonder then that Algerian women are increasingly resentful of men. 'The girls end up hating anything that has to do with men or religion,' says 55-year-old Ourida, and Algerian schoolmistress. Divorcee Mawel is more blunt. 'I wept for joy when my daughter was born,' she said. 'If it had been a boy, I'd have thrown him away because he would have grown up to be like all Algerian men.' Women have most to lose from the GIA's campaign against education. Although Algerian schools are mixed, the GIA has insisted that girls and boys be separated, and that music and gym classes for girls be shut down. In the countryside, where government control is tenuous, most schools have dropped French classes and sports for girls, in an attempt to placate the militants.
Schoolmistress Ourida works in one of the more prosperous quarters of Algiers, but fundamentalists who pray at the mosque across the street keep a close eye on her school. 'It's a sneaky, subtle pressure,' she says. 'We find tracts glued to the walls. Since 1993 we've stopped singing, dancing and sports. We still raise the flag at the beginning of the week, but I tell the children to sing the national anthem very softly.'
Ourida has sent her own two adult children abroad. She no longer travels within Algeria and car bombs have made her afraid to go shopping. 'Algeria is one big prison,' she says.
Even teaching, her life-long passion, gives her little satisfaction. 'Children aren't the same any more. They're sad. I think often of Fatima, whose throat was slashed in front of her school last year. I think of the car bomb off the Place du Premier Mai; they set it off just as the kids were coming out of schools. After the explosion they found little hands stuck on the walls, heads without bodies. I think of the girls who have been raped - some of them have committed suicide. These are the things that have marked us. We all feel raped in our souls, if not in our bodies.'
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Here is another chilling link about Islamic group's work in Algeria by human rights watch:
http://hrw.org/worldreport99/mideast/algeria.html
Here are some quotes:
"In January 1998, Prime Minister Ahmed Ouyahia gave the first official death toll from the six years of strife: 26,536 through the end of 1997. The U.S. State Department, around the same time, cited an estimate of 70,000, a figure in line with the prevailing estimates by Western observers. Thousands more were killed during 1998".
"There was overwhelming evidence, including the testimony of survivors, that Islamist armed groups had since 1992 carried out the murder of thousands of individuals singled out for opposing or defying Islamist demands—from refusing to contribute money or provisions to armed groups, to refusing, in the case of women, to adhere to a dress code—or merely because they were related to members of targeted categories, such as security force members. Islamist groups killed whole families, sometimes abducting young women to be held in sexual servitude in guerrilla camps; survivors who escaped some attacks of this kind told Human Rights Watch of religious harangues preceding the murder of their families". |
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ARYAI_NYC
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 76
Location: NEW YORK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| blank wrote: | | ARYAI_NYC wrote: | | redemption wrote: | Stefania is an italian, but she
is a STRONG STRONG supporter of Iranian people.. don't mess with her - Although she does really get pissed at left-wingers 
I say, give Moore his stage to play his bullshit movie.. freedom of speech..
I'm not paying to watch it.. |
WAIT A MINUTE THIS BIG MOUTH CHICK IS NOT EVEN IRANIAN
ALL THAT DAMN MOUTH...
I MEAN I RESPECT A NON-IRANIAN HELPER/ACTIVIST BUT SHE SUPPORTS WORLD WIDE TERRORISM BY AGREEING WITH WAR? |
Hey Aryai_nyc get the **** off Stefania's back.....you weasel lefty, mf,.......She has been helping to promote Iranian cause, and if you bad-ass weed don't like it then f..k off and get the hell out of this site go find moore's site and start kissing his Commi ass because you have the same ideology and that is to make deals with the devils |
YO BLANK, KISS MY ASS. BY THE WAY I AM FROM A PLACE WHERE I CAN SAY AND THINK WHATEVER THE **** I WANT. YOU CAN CALL ME A COMMI, A LEFTY OR WHATEVER YOU INSANE EXTREMIST, PICK FOR THE DAY, BUT GUESS WHAT I AM SITTING HERE CRACKING THE **** UP AT YOU, STEFANIA AND ALL THE OTHER LIARS THAT EXIST ON THIS FORUM...SO GO MAKE UP SOME NEW HISTORY FOR TODAY, TO SUPPORT YOUR IDEAOLOGY ANG YOUR LITTLE GIRLFRIEND'S TOO.
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FREEDOM IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING NEXT TO HEALTH |
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ARYAI_NYC
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 76
Location: NEW YORK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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STEFANIA WROTE
**** you, *****[/quote]
NO ACTUALLY *****, IT WOULD BE **** YOU. YOU ARE A MOTHER FUCKIN' LIAR. DON'T THEY HAVE FACILITIES IN ITALY FOR THE MANIC DEPRESSIVE AND PATHOLOGICAL?
TALKING ALL THAT ****..."ARYAI_NYC TALKED ABOUT ME...BOO HOOO, SNIFFLE, SNIFFLE"
_________________
FREEDOM IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING NEXT TO HEALTH
Last edited by ARYAI_NYC on Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ARYAI_NYC
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 76
Location: NEW YORK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| reza wrote: | | Quote: | | I say to you f...ck islam......... |
real intellectual argument there blank - at least acknowledge that even tough you are ignorant to islam, it can help other people.
Zadig where are you going? you were really talking some sense back there i say france 1 usa 0 |
YES MY DEAR FRIEND REZA, BLANK IS A REAL CLASS ACT, JUST LIKE HIS WIFE STEFANIA
_________________
FREEDOM IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING NEXT TO HEALTH |
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ARYAI_NYC
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 76
Location: NEW YORK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| blank wrote: | | Zadig wrote: | And you f..... ignorant and racist.
Nothing, they know nothing, they don't want to know anything.
Do you see these ignorants, they dominate the world
If you are not part of them, they call you unbeliever
Neglect them, Khayam, follow your own path.
WHO DO YOU THINK KHAYAM WAS TALKING ABOUT, AT THAT TIME?
Of course, he was talking about the Arabs who did invade Persia and impose their religion on ours. Khayam was like you Blank, suffering of this situation, but he was a wise man! |
Well good for you......you can follow your arab, islamic friends but I tell them unless they learn to stop worshiping blindly, then they're fucked....
DON'T YOU KNOW THAT BLANK IS A RACIST? HE IS PROBABLY ONE OF THOSE IRANIAN GUYS WHO CHANGES HIS NAME TO BOB OR JOHN AND TRIES TO PASS HIMSELF OFF AS A DARK EUROPEAN AND ONLY GOES OUT WITH ANGLO SAXON WOMEN...I KNOW THE TYPE, WE HAVE A TON HERE IN NYC |
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FREEDOM IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING NEXT TO HEALTH |
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Fardad
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 70
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Dear Azadeh,
Your article talking about ""Algerian women victim of men´s cruality"" was quite interresting reading.
The problem is that you are talking about the country´s situation, me I was talking about the Algerians who were born here in France, French-Arabian education. Those are the second, or third generation of economic migrants coming from Algeria; around the 6o´s, end of colonialism. More occidentalised, following the "French" education, going to university and brilliant doing.
You know, we cannot talk too much about Algeria, their situation is quite ambiguous, quite similar of ours, in Iran. |
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Fardad
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 70
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Sorry for being misunderstood |
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American Visitor
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:08 am Post subject: Islam |
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I am late to this conversation and I hope I'm not barging in.
I am a proud American and know as anyone else who is honest will understand that if it weren't for the US the world would be ruled by totalitarian regimes. This pride is not to put other people down, but because I know what we have accomplished. Our country is under assault by people who do not value freedom or liberty but want to place us under an Islamic dictatorship so we can join the Iranians in earthly paradise.
I have talked extensively with Muslims and have studied Islam to some extent although I am by no means an expert. I have not yet found a Muslim who can extricate the religion from violence and totalitarianism. It is my understanding that Muhammid himself was a slave trader and a highwayman preying on caravans traveling through the desert. This makes a poor starting point to derive a "religion of peace." If anyone here who represents Islam would like to defend their positions with facts, I would be glad to listen.
George Bush apparently had faulty intelligence according to the bipartisan committee which looked into the matter. He also assumed and still believes "Islam is a religion of peace." When you formulate policy based on inadequate information, your foreign policy will have problems. However, there are Muslim people in both Afghanistan and Iraq who are willing to put their lives on the line because they also believe the future of Islam lies in the direction of freedom and democracy. Despite my misgivings about the possibility of success in an Islamic country, I greatly admire those people, both Christian and Muslim, who havel sacrificed their lives for the dream.
Guys like Michael Moore and John Kerry stand for nothing. They have not offered a better plan for dealing with Islamic extremism (a very substantial portion of Muslims) or to help the people in the Middle East achieve a better life. They are good at criticizing but have nothing to offer instead. Saddam was a mass murderer who left over 300,000 Iraqis in mass graves. It is hypociritical to trash a man who went in to help liberate an oppressed people. It is sad indeed to see that religious fanatacism of some prevents the Iraqi people from the destiny of freedom and democracy which the US is trying to give them. |
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Sourena
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:09 am Post subject: |
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Okay, so you wanted a defendor of Islam and here I am. I am a proud muslim and I will say this, Islam is all about your own interpretation, Just because me and the mullahs in Qom both pray to Allah, it doesn't mean we have the same beliefs. Islam is not like catholicism (I mean no prejudice by this), you do not have to follow the words exactly, that is fundementalism, you interpret what is written your own way.
For example, Islam says not to eat dogs and pigs. Here is the way I see this rule. The Qoran was written 14 centuries ago. Pigs and dogs were the two dirtiest creatures roaming the countryside, so the reason I believe this rule was put into place was to protect people from disease. So in present day where pigs' filthiness is no longer a problem, I eat as much pork as I want.
Also, if what President Bush has given Iraq can be called "Freedom", I say, let him keep it. Don't spread it to Iran. And you don't actually think he believes "Islam is a religion of Peace", do you? Common, it's not faulty intelligence, it's a little something i call brownnosing. Remember there are many Muslims who are american citizens, and in this election, every vote counts.
PS. ARYAI_NYC, Dude, take off the CapsLock. |
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American Visitor
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Sourena,
I do recognize all Muslims don't believe exactly the same. Also as I stated, I admire those Muslims who are putting their own lives at risk in Iraq and Afghanistan to try to better their people's lives. My skepticism is whether it is possible to have a democracy with freedom and prosperity and still believe the Koran is God's infallible word and the life of Muhammid to be the perfect example of how people should live.
1. My question to you is was Muhammid a slave trader and a highwayman or not? Did he chop the heads of hundreds of men from a Jewish tribe they had defeated? Did he condone forced sex with captive women? If so how can you interpret the Koran as God's infallible word and Muhammid as the perfect example for people without condoning that type of behavior?
2. As a Muslim what positive teachings do you have to offer the world? I'm not asking you to explain the negative things such as jihad and slavery in a less brutal way, I want to know what is the positive message from Islam which can make my life better? Does the Koran teach us to love our enemies or even people who are not our enemies but belong to different religions? Does the Koran teach you to love fellow Muslims? Which passages teach these things?
3. What do you see as the intellectual basis of morality? In other words what are the foundational principles upon which we are to base our moral choices?
President Bush appears to have made some miscalculations in going into Iraq, the major one was a faulty understanding of Isalm. I'm sure you and most Muslims in the US will indeed vote for John Kerry, that has been well supported by the polls. That fact alone should cause the Christians and Jews who are also voting for him to reconsider since there is no reason to think the Muslims have their best interest at heart. I am certain that president Bush was completely sincere when he went into Iraq to free the people. What he failed to understand is that people have to be ready to accept freedom and to respect other people's rights to think and worship differently than themselves before they can have a truly democratic country such as ours. The Iraqis are clearly not there yet and may never reach that point. |
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Sourena
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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1. I haven't the slightest clue where you got that Muhammad was a slave trader. I have never heard of this before, and it certainly isn't in the Qoran.
2. All the same things as let's say, christianity. The only difference is that Christians believe Jesus was the son of god, which Islam says is not correct. Jesus was a messenger of God, that's all. I will not explain the bad ones because i don't believe in them. And I have not read the Qoran so I can't tell you what passage says what, but i can tell you with confidence that nowhere in the Qoran does it say "Hate thy neighbor", if you can show me such a passage, I will investigate it and show you it is a basic concept of interpretation. Also, speaking of Jihad, I'm not going to point fingers and such, but the concept of Holy War was first used by Christians (Crusades)
3. Huh?
Bush knew exactly what he was getting himself into. Don't give me that "meaning-well", "liberation" stuff. I have another post that shows that Bush's middle east policy has only so far strengthened the IRI.
http://activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2276&start=15 |
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American Visitor
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Sourena,
It appears you are probably a cultural Muslim which is fine. It is the fanatical guys who are deep into the infallible Koran, the hadiths, and the prophet who is the perfect example who screw things up. I have no quarrel with you.
The Crusades were marked by crimes against civilians and Jews at times which was wrong. However, they were originally a defense war because the Muslims had invaded Europe and were enforcing Islamic law on non-Muslims. This concept of Holy war, jihad, is still considered fundamental by many fanatical Muslims. The Muslims destroyed the city of Constinanople which was a Christian city and wanted to destroy all of Christianity including Rome. The Europeans were fighting for their survival.
Your response to question #3 is interesting. I guess I didn't make my question clear. When you are presented with a moral paradox, what basic moral principles do you use to decide how to respond?
Your opinions about Bush are your privilege just I have mine. I doubt either of us know him personally. I do know what both he and Karen Hughes his advisor have said, which indicates neither of them has studied Islam. People have to be ready for freedom, tolerance and democracy and the Iraqis clearly aren't there yet. It is ironic that Afghanistan which is very poor and culturally isolated is making much more progress than Iraq. They have had their fill of the religious fanatics whereas many Iraqis are glorying in their newfound freedom to express their fanatacism. Blowing up Christian churches was a nice touch don't you think? |
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Sourena
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, we all have a problem with the fanatics.
You are entitled to your opinion on the Crusades, unfortunately i can't argue with you because nothing in history is certain. I'll just agree to disagree with you on that.
As for question #3, I still don't understand. You see, I'm a scientific type, being a nuclear physics/history student, and I'm not well-versed in philosophy. Maybe if you can give me an example.
As for Bush, again I'll just agree to disagree with you on him. As for the Iraqis, yes they haven't learned the lesson about theocracy, as we in Iran and the Afghans have learned. In time, they too will see how worng it is. But may I remind you that the Shah, who we all love and admire, was himself religious and a devout muslim. He interpreted Islam the correct way, however. |
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American Visitor
Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Sourena,
The best scholarly study on moral development I know was by Kholberg a brilliant Jewish scholar who did considerable research on how people make moral decisions. Someone who is a fanatical type will blindly follow rules, where as a more mature individual will have an understanding of the principles upon which morality are based. Kholberg would present people with moral paradoxes and follow their thought processes to see how morally mature they were.
I think we agree president Bush misjudged the reaction of the Iraqis to the overthrow of Saddam Haussein. I think many Iraqis are happy he is gone and see this as an opportunity for freedom while the fanatics consider this the time to set up their own theocracies. From what I've read, I am sure Bush didn't expect the level of fanatacism which he has encountered. I can't imagine any politician would deliberately get himself into the situation he is in.
I don't claim to be an expert but I do know the Crusdaes were launched in self defense, and saved Europe. However there were excesses for which Christians have had to repent. After they had won against great odds, they were not gracious but killed many civilians. |
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